1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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236B:4 is i14, TC's, 55dmg, but is unsafe. 236236B:4 is i15, TC's but is safe, and does 80 damage. I don't really care about the TC, as I'm using it to punish (although 236236B is a good poke, being safe and TCing alot of stuff). iGDR is i15 and with the best combo (which you can screw up) gives you a whole 60. It's good, but not the best by any means.
 
TidalLeaf said:
236B:4 is i14, TC's, 55dmg, but is unsafe. 236236B is i15, TC's but is safe, and does 80 damage. I don't really care about the TC, as I'm using it to punish. iGDR is i15 and with the best combo (which you can screw up) gives you a whole 60. It's good, but not the best by any means.
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I agree for sure, it's pretty easy to screw up. I'm guilty of every once in a while screwing it up. But really, how often do you punish moves w/236236B? I understand that move is great for punishing whiffs and THAT one is safe but on BLOCKED moves, how often do you punish?
 
Regularly. You do 2KB as Mitus against me and I block? 80 dmg punisher for you. CL 214 blocked as Ivy? Be prepared to eat 123dmg.

(This is of course offline against the computer and my friends, but online I can usually with -20 moves or more. Less than that, I stick with 236B)
 
TidalLeaf said:
Regularly. You do 2KB as Mitus against me and I block? 80 dmg punisher for you. CL 214 blocked as Ivy? Be prepared to eat 123dmg.

(This is of course offline against the computer and my friends, but online I can usually with -20 moves or more. Less than that, I stick with 236B)
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The fact that iGDR jumps (it's saved me a lot) and overall distance, to me, it's the best punisher. 60 damage is a lot. If you can get 80 all the time, that's pretty bad ass. But that 80 won't hit the same amount of moves that iGDR does. A select few at best. But w/out getting off the subject, overall he doesn't have any bad matchups and has all the answers to deal w/everything. He doesn't have any "doom" combos nor does he need it.
 
That's pretty theoretical imo. 236236B is only viable as punisher for bs -18+ regardless of it being i15 and what not. iGDR is by far a more consistent punisher provided the opponent is good with the command aka Chang's fd.
 
so are we gonna ever edit the front page list or what?

i think a changes should be that are definitive

voldo-god tier

nightmare-mid

asta-high mid

yes asta and nighty get a bumb America plays them retarded
 
eh, i think Nori's in the ballpark of being right. Now that i play cervy a bit, i can definitely see where he's coming from.

If I could pull off iGDR and iTP 100% of the time i wanted it that would mean I could punish; ANY obvious high or low (including strings), any obvious move that's a touch on the slow side, and any move that's -14 on block, and many many whiffs. Any of these situations could be 60 to 100 some damage, usually with wakes thrown in for free.

Not to mention that Cervys BT mixup is pretty strong, and he gets it from a lot of situations.

I know that's a bit on the theory side, but its more or less correct. I wont say i think he's the best in the game, or even top tier, but I know he's underrated by a pretty decent margin.
 
meh.

Cervy is definately underrated since not too many people seem to use him/know what he has but I definatly don't think hes as Godlike Nori is making him out to be. :/

iGDR is a very good !15 frame punisher that will give you a solid 50-60 damage. This is VERY good for SC4....That being said I still dont think its as good as Sophie's 236B. Sophie can punish basic 2Ks with 236B iirc, this is something Cervy cannot do (this really does make a big freaking difference). Anything that is -15 or safer is REALLY hard to punish (and I really doubt there is anyone who can punish -15 moves with iGDR consistently...maybe !16-!17 but doing !15 consistently is reaaaally pushing it)

I will say iGDR is fucking sweet for punishing certain high strings Nightmare GS KK, Sieg 66KA

Cervy's BT mixups are good but I wouldn't say they're completely dominating because like Nori said he doesn't get a "doom combo" but he gets solid damage off relatively safe mixups.

I think Brian8s said it best "Cervy is the Best non-broken character". I reaaaaaaaally agree with this statement

IMO, A tier. Not because he has any particular glaring weakness or hes lacking heavily in one department, but some top tiers just have much more abuseable shit.

Nori- Tourney placings are not necessarily a good measure of a character's tier IMO. Props to you for repping Cervy and placing consistently but I don't think thats a merit to how good the character is. KDZ recently won a tourney using Maxi, and yet I don't think Maxi is going anywhere on most people's tier list.


edit:

BLDave's avatar is the truth
 
hotnikkelz said:
That's pretty theoretical imo. 236236B is only viable as punisher for bs -18+ regardless of it being i15 and what not. iGDR is by far a more consistent punisher provided the opponent is good with the command aka Chang's fd.
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iGDR can't be buffered in with the same methods that 236236B for sophie can. If you try, you'll get an empty Dread Charge. So to punish i14 moves with iGDR, you need to hit a just frame just frame. Still one of the better punishers in the game, for people willing to invest the time and effort.

Cervy's definitely strong with enough work put in, upper mid no doubt. Just takes a lot of work and solid execution.
 
Cervy's somewhere between 6th-8th in terms of ranking. The top 5 belong to Kilik, Voldo, Algol, Amy, Hilde. In order for those top 5 characters to be most effective, they force you to limit using your move list a certain way. It doesn't really feel that way against Cervantes.

BLDave or Nori: what other moves does Cervy have besides aK that leave him BT? Edit: LOL I forgot to ask Kowtow and he just posted.
 
Vintz- hes got iTP, 4BK (which usually pushes the opponent too far out to mixup them up anyways) , and 8B+K (if it hops over them)
 
Even though I play Hilde only... I think she isn't S tier... definitely A though... she has enough shortcomings and some really horrible matchups.
 
Indeed, Cervantes isn't so great. WS A and BT mixups are yawn. aK is like his only good way of going into BT, and if blocking that becomes no surprise, it's pretty easy to look for BT 2K on reaction and punish hard.
 
Vincent said:
In order for those top 5 characters to be most effective, they force you to limit using your move list a certain way. It doesn't really feel that way against Cervantes.
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iGDR is a 14 frame tech crouch and tech jump. If that doesnt limit a move list, nothing does. Its all a matter of, can you execute it every time? I know i cant, but im not saying i dont have room for improvement either.
Vincent said:
BLDave or Nori: what other moves does Cervy have besides aK that leave him BT?
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The most reliable way to get into BT is aK or 4B,K after a WS A, as well as B+G, K and good ol, iTP. 3 solid and consistent ways to get there.

Dullyanna said:
Yeah, I guess the point would be that Cervy doesn't have too many viable ways into BT, lol.
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WS A, aK is pretty viable. There are lots of situations where WS A can be used with little risk. Punishment for unsafe moves, after a whiffed high, and after CH 2A+B are 3 great ways to lead into that BT mixup via WS A. Dont discount iTP either. If used well it can port through and punish.....a lot.
 
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