1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.
She has superior frames and damage over most characters. In a cage she is still getting 60-100 damage off either safe moves or moves that give positive frames on block. Anyways, your perception of human error is pretty funny. You are saying I can never step a computer or duck one of its moves? If thats what you are saying, you are talking about the ultimate theory fighter that shouldn't even be brought up here. In ultimate theory fighter all characters are unstoppable because if you do a low they jump, if you do a high they duck, if you do a mid they parry. At this point its not even a fighting game nor worth talking about. Anyways I don't see why you are caught up on computers, this is a human vs human fighting game in tournaments. You can't set the computer on very hard to represent you lol.
 
The beauty of tier lists right that is none of them have credibility. You got people like Nori talking about tiers when he hasn't even played a good Hilde. Every area has different people at different skill levels. This will dramatically effect the way they look at tiers. I think Nats and Evo will definitely shine some light on tiers but it still might not solidify it.

Well said. However there are some characters that consistently place so far and some to an even smaller degree at major tournaments. They also seem to be good on paper, theoretically and most top players usually dominate using these characters.

In combination with that is that most top players also tend to be gravitating towards the same set of characters.

Those characters so far are:

Hilde:
Kilik:
Voldo:
Amy:

Another interesting character that seems to be consistently placing but on paper is garbage is Lizardman which in itself is interesting.

All the above characters also are played by generally the best players in the Soul Calibur community.

Those characters are consistent on paper (theoretical),placings (reality), and outside of this all over the place thread are generally agreed upon by top players as well.
 
Alright, I've been low on the whole soul Calibur community discussions for a while, and there has been a HUGE change in the tier list.

Now I understand why Algol is where he is, but why is Hilde top TOP TOPPP?
I guess I'd understand high tier, but what is it that makes her one of the ebst in the game?
Okay, aside from monstrous ring out potential which is obvious, and her wonderwoman grabs.... and her handful of speed moves..... and her safety...... okay anything else? lol
 
Alright, I've been low on the whole soul Calibur community discussions for a while, and there has been a HUGE change in the tier list.

Now I understand why Algol is where he is, but why is Hilde top TOP TOPPP?
I guess I'd understand high tier, but what is it that makes her one of the ebst in the game?
Okay, aside from monstrous ring out potential which is obvious, and her wonderwoman grabs.... and her handful of speed moves..... and her safety...... okay anything else? lol

her mole plays a mind game.... its just ..THERE. very distracting...
 
She has superior frames and damage over most characters. In a cage she is still getting 60-100 damage off either safe moves or moves that give positive frames on block. Anyways, your perception of human error is pretty funny. You are saying I can never step a computer or duck one of its moves? If thats what you are saying, you are talking about the ultimate theory fighter that shouldn't even be brought up here. In ultimate theory fighter all characters are unstoppable because if you do a low they jump, if you do a high they duck, if you do a mid they parry. At this point its not even a fighting game nor worth talking about. Anyways I don't see why you are caught up on computers, this is a human vs human fighting game in tournaments. You can't set the computer on very hard to represent you lol.

I am not caught up in anything...just pointing out an obvious flaw with tier lists.
Which is either tier lists are representations of the best character in the game...or by human opinion the most dominating character in the game. I think this is what causes most contradictions...see if a character is dominating...we're to assume the character is one of the best if not the best in the game. However, this is still not a fact...merely an assumption.
In terms of Hilde...I am pretty certain if she was restricted to cage fights, or rings out weren't part of this game, she wouldn't be by majority consensus the top character in the game. That is debatable of course.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Okay this is an estimate of all the characters that have won offline tournaments posted on this site.
Thx to those people that actually post the GF results. Players that used two characters but it wasn't certain which ones used in the GF I posted one win for both chars. Players like OOF who used the entire roster but results weren't listed, no characters got a win. But then again just an estimate...

Voldo 11
Cassandra 11
Siegfried 10
Xianghua 8
Hilde 7
Amy 7
Kilik 6
Yoshimitsu 6
Lizardman 6
Mitsurugi 6
Ivy 5
Nightmare 5
Astaroth 4
Raphael 4
Cervantes 3
Algol 3
Setsuka 2
Talim 1
Taki 1
Yun Seong 1
Yoda 1
Sophie 1

It helps when results are posted with some care.
Players that kept on popping up.
Note: Linkrkc(Ivy), Ceirnian(Hilde), Saitoh(Asta), Aris(Cass), Aris(Seigfried) Thugish(Amy), Dino/Enkindu/BLDave(voldo), kilik(Asura), Neorussel(Yoshie), JimmyPikachuChoi(Xianghua), MateoGalvan(Mitsu), MysticBill/Vicious(Lizzy), Kid D Zaster(SC4 USA), OOFMATIC(SC4 Canada),
 
I am not caught up in anything...just pointing out an obvious flaw with tier lists.
Which is either tier lists are representations of the best character in the game...or by human opinion the most dominating character in the game. I think this is what causes most contradictions...see if a character is dominating...we're to assume the character is one of the best if not the best in the game. However, this is still not a fact...merely an assumption.

You are saying the obvious flaw with tier lists is because theoretically some character isn't being utilized right? Or theoretically humans can't play on the level of computers so these tiers lists aren't valid? None of that matters because if something is found the tier lists can adjust to it and like I said humans are the ones doing the playing.

When tiers are obvious they are obvious. There comes a point in where saying certain characters aren't top is like saying a Ferari isn't a fast car. You clearly haven't played a good hilde so you rag on her. But anyone who has definitely isn't going to keep making statements like you do. It's one of those things you need to experience because until you do theres no real reason for you to talk about how good she is. Btw, I like how almost all the arguments against Hilde I have seen on here have to do with taking something away from her then saying she isn't good. She does have the doom combo and she isn't restricted to only the cage so these are barely worth mentioning.
 
king ace- hilde is more than just doom combo. She is very unpunishable and her grabs are really strong. Not to mention she has some good wall combo/ wall tech traps. I think eventully they will ban hilde. In a level where she can RO you your pretty much fucked. She can hold her own in a cage but i will be the 1st to admit that she isnt as good in cage cause the walls stop her combo's. There are 3 cage levels out of 20 :) you do the math hahahahaha hilde is beast:).
 
You are saying the obvious flaw with tier lists is because theoretically some character isn't being utilized right? Or theoretically humans can't play on the level of computers so these tiers lists aren't valid? None of that matters because if something is found the tier lists can adjust to it and like I said humans are the ones doing the playing.

When tiers are obvious they are obvious. There comes a point in where saying certain characters aren't top is like saying a Ferari isn't a fast car. You clearly haven't played a good hilde so you rag on her. But anyone who has definitely isn't going to keep making statements like you do. It's one of those things you need to experience because until you do theres no real reason for you to talk about how good she is. Btw, I like how almost all the arguments against Hilde I have seen on here have to do with taking something away from her then saying she isn't good. She does have the doom combo and she isn't restricted to only the cage so these are barely worth mentioning.

It's obvious playing against Hilde has left you scared. I have played good Hilde's and lost terribly. However, my point wasn't about Hilde entirely. Mind you...if you do play a certain way, which I am not sure about, and eliminate the doom combo...you will stand a chance.

My point is that tier lists are assumptions nothing more nothing less. Eventually over time, we can come to an exact estimate but nonetheless...it is never clear nor measurable by human standards who the best character in the game is.
Nori came here and stated Cervantes was somewhere at the top. And he pointed out a number of tools and options the character has that would make him a viable candidate for the top.

However, is Cervantes dorminating? No. So the consesus states Nori is talking out of his ass. The obvious flaw here starts with the fact that Cervantes is an execution heavy character...and indeed only someone like Chang'sFriend could make you consider Nori statements. Believe it or not...since I have started to train with Cervy myself...his very much a viable candidate for the top...depending on how you play him, and how good your execution is. Some story with Setsuka, Hilde might not be a discussion for dethroning, but Amy, Voldo and Kilik are fair game.

I guess the question is does winning mean you're better or more skilled? And can you answer this question without uncertainties?

Hilde is easy enough to pick-up and learn...master and win. The character does most of the work, and requires very little from the player. That said I personally can still see a small enough window to suggest, there are characters with stronger options. However...this is merely opinion.

If you must persist then we must come to an understanding that tier lists are representations of the most dorminating characters in the game, and not necessary the best or strongest characters in the game. It is obvious that Amy dorminates so she is at the top, it is not obvious that Cervantes dorminates so he isn't; this seems to be the reasoning. And that reasoning is flawed.

And you have it backwards theory is what tiers are based on. Tiers aren't based on scientific or mathematic data, that would otherwise prove with the greatest amount of accurance the strongest to the weakest...they're based on assumption; assumption driven by human perception and individual experiences. All theory my friend.

Concentration is the ability to utilize the greatest amount of brain power, to successfully accomplish a task. They say that humans use about 2% or something of their brain power. This is where it starts.
 
It's obvious playing against Hilde has left you scared. I have played good Hilde's and lost terribly. However, my point wasn't about Hilde entirely. Mind you...if you do play a certain way, which I am not sure about, and eliminate the doom combo...you will stand a chance.

How do you "eliminate" an i20 TCing mid that aGIs other mids and gives advantage on block?
 
How do you "eliminate" an i20 TCing mid that aGIs other mids and gives advantage on block?

I A grab, bullrush...or convince to ban. Adapt or ban son! Broke is broke.
We have dealt with the same mentality in SC3 interms of Xianghua...banning is an easy fix.(I ain't going there) Adaptation is the only answer...
 
I agree with Kingace.

Mathematical proof of tiers simply dosent or cant exist because of the huge number of variables (reaction time, string recognition, whether a characters lows will or will not be jumped most of the time, auto GI...etc) that cannot be tottally accutately and comprehensively gauged in realtion to exaclty how much that certain variable improves or worsens the character over all. Frame data can begin tell you the specific mechanics of the game, but not how the person behind the character deals with these mechanics.

No mathematical proof means all tier classifications are based off assumption and human perception, which can be accurate, but inevitably.....only to a certain extent, hence the debate we have going here.

Seriously it would be easier for a mathematition to prove the existance of black holes than to prove SCIV tiers. And I honestly dont know if thats an exaggeration or not.

Anyways thats my two cents.
 
I A grab, bullrush...or convince to ban. Adapt or ban son! Broke is broke.
We have dealt with the same mentality in SC3 interms of Xianghua...banning is an easy fix.(I ain't going there) Adaptation is the only answer...

how is A grab gonna stop C3A? C3A doesn't jump, it TCs, so there's no reason for A grab to beat it
 
I A grab, bullrush...

Yeah..... Tiamat already covered the A grab... but remember that while crouch throws can work, they necessitate prediction. Also, bullrush is steppable (Especially by Hilde). Again, the fact that she can fuck you over for any mistake, for throwing out a high/low/linear/mid weapon attack is what makes her top, not just the combos themselves.
 
Rock is motha ****in top tier.

One time Oofmatic tried to challenge me like HE WAS SOMEBODY, so I message him back saying "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKING"


You know what? He was so scared...

...he didn't message me back.


hmpf.....Bitches....
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Hilde, Amy, Algol.

Only after these 3 to tier's exist. Gods are not tiers.

Ruiner
 
It's obvious playing against Hilde has left you scared. I have played good Hilde's and lost terribly. However, my point wasn't about Hilde entirely. Mind you...if you do play a certain way, which I am not sure about, and eliminate the doom combo...you will stand a chance.

My point is that tier lists are assumptions nothing more nothing less. Eventually over time, we can come to an exact estimate but nonetheless...it is never clear nor measurable by human standards who the best character in the game is.
Nori came here and stated Cervantes was somewhere at the top. And he pointed out a number of tools and options the character has that would make him a viable candidate for the top.

However, is Cervantes dorminating? No. So the consesus states Nori is talking out of his ass. The obvious flaw here starts with the fact that Cervantes is an execution heavy character...and indeed only someone like Chang'sFriend could make you consider Nori statements. Believe it or not...since I have started to train with Cervy myself...his very much a viable candidate for the top...depending on how you play him, and how good your execution is. Some story with Setsuka, Hilde might not be a discussion for dethroning, but Amy, Voldo and Kilik are fair game.

I guess the question is does winning mean you're better or more skilled? And can you answer this question without uncertainties?

Hilde is easy enough to pick-up and learn...master and win. The character does most of the work, and requires very little from the player. That said I personally can still see a small enough window to suggest, there are characters with stronger options. However...this is merely opinion.

If you must persist then we must come to an understanding that tier lists are representations of the most dorminating characters in the game, and not necessary the best or strongest characters in the game. It is obvious that Amy dorminates so she is at the top, it is not obvious that Cervantes dorminates so he isn't; this seems to be the reasoning. And that reasoning is flawed.

And you have it backwards theory is what tiers are based on. Tiers aren't based on scientific or mathematic data, that would otherwise prove with the greatest amount of accurance the strongest to the weakest...they're based on assumption; assumption driven by human perception and individual experiences. All theory my friend.

Concentration is the ability to utilize the greatest amount of brain power, to successfully accomplish a task. They say that humans use about 2% or something of their brain power. This is where it starts.

Let me start off by say that humans using only 10 percent of our brains is actually a myth.

I never made a tier list, but anyone with a brain will know that Hilde has an extreme advantage considering her risk reward ratio. You think Setsuka is amazing because she has hard to do combos? If someone could do these combos consistently they still wouldn't instantly kill like hilde's combos. Setsuka's best combos without tech trapping do around 110 damage which is the same as Hilde's C3B. Hilde's combo is much easier to hit and plus if theres a ring edge it rings out farther than any other combo. Most of Setsuka's combos that do around 60 damage don't give her frame advantage like c2bb or c3a and they are still harder to do than Hilde's combos. It may sound nice to say Setsuka and Cervy have hard execution so theoretically they are the best characters. But does their hard execution lead to anything better than what Hilde has? not really. Also, this game is played by humans and you can't change that. Heavy execution will lead to mistakes while a better character with easier execution will dominate.

Now to move on to your tier philosophy. Of course our tier lists are judged by human standards because we are human and we are the ones doing the playing. Who cares if a robot could parry every single last one of our moves, a human will never be able to do that. This isn't the matrix and we shouldn't treat it that way. Theres no Neo and there are no agents, just regular people playing the game. Sure I perceive Tira being trash but who is going to argue that with me considering almost everyone is perceiving the same thing. Thats how tier lists are created. A general consensus of opinions on who is a strong character. Sure its early and sure we can't play like robots. But tier lists can be very accurate for what they are used for, humans vs humans. If humans find new things with the characters the tier lists will adapt to it. Should I talk about metaphysics and quantum theory because tier lists might not even exist because the computer I am typing on might not exist? Hell no. Sure everyone has opinions, but when a lump of opinions combine to the same conclusion it does say something.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom