1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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After the patch: how I see tiers, tourney legal chars only
S+:Sophitia, Yoshimitsu
S: Ivy, Mitsu, Taki, Cassandra, X, Lizard Man, Amy
A: Kilik, Raph, Yun, Sig, Algol
B: Zalsalamel, Mina, Nightmare, Tira, Maxi, Cervantes, Voldo, Setsuka, Asta, Talim
C: Rock, Hilde

Again SS= needs massive nerf
S+= needs slight nerf
S,A= balanced well enough
B= needs slight buff
C= needs significant buff

Yeah, the tiers are that bunched up cause I do think the game has decent balance now, just two chars a bit too strong now, and some a bit too weak
 
arstal said:
After the patch: how I see tiers, tourney legal chars only
S+:Sophitia, Yoshimitsu
S: Ivy, Mitsu, Taki, Cassandra, X, Lizard Man, Amy
A: Kilik, Raph, Yun, Sig, Algol
B: Zalsalamel, Mina, Nightmare, Tira, Maxi, Cervantes, Voldo, Setsuka, Asta, Talim
C: Rock, Hilde

Again SS= needs massive nerf
S+= needs slight nerf
S,A= balanced well enough
B= needs slight buff
C= needs significant buff

Yeah, the tiers are that bunched up cause I do think the game has decent balance now, just two chars a bit too strong now, and some a bit too weak
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I think Hilde is better than a C, personally. She becomes a lot better when you get used to her charge moves. I would probably move Asta and Setsuka up a bit, too, but other than that, it's a pretty decent tier list.
 
arstal said:
After the patch: how I see tiers, tourney legal chars only
S+:Sophitia, Yoshimitsu
S: Ivy, Mitsu, Taki, Cassandra, X, Lizard Man, Amy
A: Kilik, Raph, Yun, Sig, Algol
B: Zalsalamel, Mina, Nightmare, Tira, Maxi, Cervantes, Voldo, Setsuka, Asta, Talim
C: Rock, Hilde

Again SS= needs massive nerf
S+= needs slight nerf
S,A= balanced well enough
B= needs slight buff
C= needs significant buff

Yeah, the tiers are that bunched up cause I do think the game has decent balance now, just two chars a bit too strong now, and some a bit too weak
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You kidding me?? they dont need to bring Yoshi down anymore... hes fine where hes at... just bring the other characters up some more if you want but damn no more nerfs for yoshi... Sophy def doesnt need a nerf... Shes barly high tier anymore... She def doesnt need another nerf either... and i hate her... lol
 
The only thing that needs nerfing on yoshi is his goddamn unblockables, some of the fastest in the game next to amy. You can't nerf anything else without changing the way he plays, he just has so many mixups and random crap that you wouldn't really know where to start on nerfing something like that. And I'd put Seig up there in S, even with the 3b nerf it's still a ridiculous move, and alot of his moves stuff alot of things they shouldn't, that and his great mix up game def makes him top tier. The rest I agree with. :O
 
IMO Voldo is higher than a B, he just got a pretty serious nerf which took away 236A. Even after that he is still a good competitor. If you look at the moves, they may look like shenanigans, but looking at the big picture, in the right hands, they are very viable and devastating. Even after the nerf he still has a 102 damage combo on CH.
 
Well, I was tempted to put Sophitia SS, but she's only SS online I think. Tier rankings should reflect offline. I do think out of all the characters, she takes the least effort to become good with.

Yoshi is solid+ really good gimmicks. I was torn on him between S and S+. I do think Sophie is definitely better then Yoshi, but making a char SS tier is controversial, and I do think Yoshi is stronger then the other S tiers. (SS tier implies scrub character pretty strongly, so I try to avoid it unless I'm 100% sure it's warranted)

Hilde- I'd have to see a good Hilde first. If you don't see a char much at all, there's usually a reason. (though not always: Mina should not be as rare as she is, she isn't sucky at all) She's the one char I haven't seen a good one yet. I've seen a couple of good Rocks.

Setsuka- might be higher. B tier doesn't mean chopped liver though, like Mina, I put her on the edge.

Astaroth- that knee nerf hurts, and he wasn't overpowered to begin with.
 
D1rty_F1sh said:
IMO Voldo is higher than a C, he just got a pretty serious nerf which took away 236A. Even after that he is still a good competitor. If you look at the moves, they may look like shenanigans, but looking at the big picture, in the right hands, they are very viable and devastating. Even after the nerf he still has a 102 damage combo on CH.
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No these guys are right. Cervy is ranked C (Raph is clearly better), and Voldo isn't that good......wow. I'm so stunned I don't even know what to say. The words that come out of some of these peoples mouths is just.....wow
 
Well, IMO there is some wrong in your tier list arstal, I can't really agree with it.
Yoshimitsu shouldn't be that high if you know him (S at best but S+? Come on...).
Mitsurugi is not top tier. The same with X and Lizardman, although they are solid characters they can't be considered top tier.
Voldo, Setsuka, Asta, Hilde and Cervantes should be higher (way higher for some characters).

My tier list : While she can be wrong sometimes (as all tier list can), I believe I am right for the top tier a least. Character in parenthesis are character that - either I am not sure or either they move up a class depending the conditions of the fights (as an exemple, Hilde is top+ in a small ring). I can explain my choices if you want.

Top tier :

Top + :

Setsuka
Cassandra
Voldo
(Hilde)

Top - :

(Hilde)
Yoshimitsu
Amy
Ivy
(Sophitia)
(Taki)

Mid tier :

Mid + :

(Taki)
(Sophitia)
Kilik
Cervantes
Siegfried
Astaroth
(Yun-Sung)

Mid - :

(Yun-Sung)
and... the rest. I can't see any real low tier.

EDIT : KoshTheKoala : You didn't wait for the edit :D I hope this explain more.
I can explain my choices if you want.
 
Maxou said:
Well, IMO there is a lot of wrong in your tier list arstal, I can't really agree with it.
Yoshimitsu shouldn't be that high if you know him (S at best but S+? Come on...).
Mitsurugi is not top tier. The same with X and Lizardman, although they are solid characters they can't be considered top tier.
Voldo, Setsuka, Asta, Hilde and Cervantes should be higher (way higher for some characters).

My tier list : (post patch - some characters I can't be really sure so I put them in paranthesis).

Top tier :

Top + :

Setsuka
Cassandra
Voldo
(Hilde)

Top - :

(Hilde)
Yoshimitsu
Amy
Ivy
(Sophitia)
(Taki)

Mid tier :

Mid + :

(Taki)
(Sophitia)
Kilik
Cervantes
Siegfried
(Yun-Sung)

Mid - :

(Yun-Sung)
and... the rest. I can't see any real low tier.
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This is very confusing.
 
Top: Cervy/Ivy/Voldo/Misu/Taki/Sisters

Mid: Everybody else

Low: Maxi/Tira (you can't control her modes. If you could, upper mid for sure), Raph (Raph's BB is back to the suck now. Raph = Trash)
 
Nori sorry but even without BB track Raph is still a decent character. Also he's definitely above Tira, Rock etc.

Also Yoshi is without a doubt top tier at the moment it really shouldn't even be a debate.
 
Nori said:
Top: Cervy/Ivy/Voldo/Misu/Taki/Sisters

Mid: Everybody else

Low: Maxi/Tira (you can't control her modes. If you could, upper mid for sure), Raph (Raph's BB is back to the suck now. Raph = Trash)
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Nori did you even read my post on the last page?? I made my arguement... I see yours no where to be found... and Artsal's list could defintely use some work as it isnt the best one I've seen... Sophy defintely isnt SS tier... Why are you people so afraid of sophy? She really doesnt have nothing when compared to other people... Shes just easier to play with.....

Its funny you will put Mitsu in Top Tier and not Yoshi , I think your just a hater... :)

You said pick you to argue why cervantes is top tier? although you havent really said shit except hes top tier... ? reasons? i know it isnt safety.... I know it isnt mix ups cause hes lacking those... His JF's are good... his throws are decent , RO ability is only on Par i'd say... Your tier list is lacking some thought.... I'd love to known how Voldo and Mitsu are top tier and Yoshi isnt... Hes stronger than both of them... Safer than mitsu, Has more mix-ups than mitsu... Has probably just as many as Voldo... His range is probably about as good as both of them... yet your just hating on him cause he was the only one to beat you in a tourney :) lol
 
Nori said:
Low: Maxi/Tira (you can't control her modes. If you could, upper mid for sure)
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I'll give you Maxi cause god damn is he a struggle to win with against good players, but Tira is much better than low. (Upper mid is probably a stretch, but I always say she's solid Mid)

Despite the "randomness" of her stances (and that's not entirely true), she still has just about all of the same effective pokes out of both stances and a laundry list of decent moves out of either.

Sure, you have to play her differently out of each stance but it's not like you don't KNOW which stance you're in so long as you pay attention.

As for the "randomness," first thing you have to know is that Tira automatically changes stances when she drops to ~30% life. What that means is, in Jolly stance, you're pretty much safe from changing unless you perform a taunt or a headbutt or drop to 30% which could change you to Gloomy. Then, in Gloomy, there is a list of about 6 moves that have varrying chances of changing stances depending on whether you use the JF version or not.

Point is, JS is where you spend most of your time, and you occasionally jump into GS to deal some damage and then *poof* it's back to JS.

Not all that hard to understand and pretty well controllable if you're paying attention.
 
Cirex said:
Hilde at top/top+?

You may want to elaborate why.
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Agreed. Hilde is good, but she certainly isn't that good.

I also agree with Rico assessment of Tira. She's not great (I'd probably put her mid to mid-low), but it's not really because of the randomness of her stances. Both Jolly and Gloomy have their own advantages. I can count the number of times that I've lost because of being in the wrong stance on two fingers (Damn you, Gloomy stance damage!). The thing that really limits her, in my mind, is a lack of power. She's just a little too weak for her speed, IMO.
 
The change in Tira's stances isn't always so clear. I've had the yellow/purple effect not show several times. It hasn't cost me a match, but it can throw you off for a second. If you're in a loud environment where you can't hear her voice change and she doesn't do the change effect, it can be difficult to figure out right away what mood she's in.

The key reason I think she is low tier, possibly lower than Rock is how absolutely nerfed she got in the 1.03 patch.

1. She wasn't even good at soul crushes, yet she got the sticky part of the patch with several key SC moves going from 13 to 30+ to SC.

2. Her ring out game was pretty average before, yet nerfed by the patch. JS 66AA only rings out at the very edge now, and looks incredibly stupid seeing the opponent curve around the edge as if they had nulify ring out.

Adding on to her clear weakness to sidestep right that maybe three of her moves can catch reliably (either slow and/or punishable).

Her surprisingly short throw range and most of her good lows being blockable on reaction. Tira's 1A is i30 and Asta's 1A is i33 to give you a perspective.

Her 1A and 3B may be pretty safe, but her frames as a whole make me sick to my stomach.

Also, she is the only character I know that has a 33% chance of hurting themselves twice as bad as the opponent using JS 44K for -12 punishment, that's a big lol in my book.

The positive side, she has the coolest moves in the game and can hurt both herself and her opponent considerably in a Gloomy combo.
 
Nori said:
Top: Cervy/Ivy/Voldo/Misu/Taki/Sisters

Mid: Everybody else

Low: Maxi/Tira (you can't control her modes. If you could, upper mid for sure), Raph (Raph's BB is back to the suck now. Raph = Trash)
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If you have to rely on BB to win your Ralph matches then you're bad, simple as that. And Tira is a fine mid tier, I was turned off by the random stance changes as well, but you just have to adapt, she's a ton of fun to play.
 
RedDjinn said:
Its funny you will put Mitsu in Top Tier and not Yoshi , I think your just a hater... :)

You said pick you to argue why cervantes is top tier? although you havent really said shit except hes top tier... ? reasons? i know it isnt safety.... I know it isnt mix ups cause hes lacking those... His JF's are good... his throws are decent , RO ability is only on Par i'd say... Your tier list is lacking some thought.... I'd love to known how Voldo and Mitsu are top tier and Yoshi isnt... Hes stronger than both of them... Safer than mitsu, Has more mix-ups than mitsu... Has probably just as many as Voldo... His range is probably about as good as both of them... yet your just hating on him cause he was the only one to beat you in a tourney :) lol
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Read my past posts. I was one of the people when this game came out to jump all over the Yoshi bandwagon and declare him top tier. Yes, I read the last post, one of your comments was "Maybe Agustin isn't using him to his full potential". From there, I had to stop reading. If you ask around the south, everybody knows who this dude is and he's super solid. I gave you reasons why Yoshi is upper mid and not top, and your answer was above. So obviously you have your mind made up and it's not open, what's the point of debating? You have to come into this thread with an open mind, you're convinced of all these conspiracy theories that I'm a "hater" so I guess that must be it;) If you think Yoshi is top tier, you're one of the many people that do, so cool? Just play another Yoshi and keep an open mind. The day you start to visually see all his mixups, you'll see what I see. I got DESTROYED by Link's Ivy 2 tourneys ago, and acknowledge she's a great char. I've been doing tourneys 6 years, the fact you think I would lose to a char and declare them not top tier is nothing short of amazing.

Mitsu is a better char than Yoshi because he's safer. You can SEE Yoshi's BEST LOWS. You can see FC 3K, Dragonfly K and with cervy, both are iGDR punishable (which means almost half life). Sisters are not as good as 3, but I haven't seen many chars that are BETTER than them. They aren't amazing, but then again, are still better than most of the cast. I play Blaze a lot, so I'm one of the few people who isn't afraid of her. Voldo is EXTREMELY safe, still does heaps of damage and not as hard to use as he was in the past. Raph still sucks, what can he do?

Why is Cervantes top? Damage. He can do damage that nobody else can. He has the best move in the game, iGDR. Goes over lows, under highs, the BEST whiff punisher in the game, and punishes SO many moves that people don't realize. Because he's hard to play, many MANY people don't want to look twice at him, and that's fine. iTP puts him at the top by itself, add on his throw game which is still great, his combo damage and it's hard to see why he ISN'T top tier.
 
Nori said:
So obviously you have your mind made up and it's not open, what's the point of debating? QUOTE]

Take your own advice... ;) LoL no one can debate with you obviously because no one can play cervantes like you... and Agustin I have no doubt hes solid still doesnt mean he plays him to his full ability yet... and everytime i said you were a hater or mad because he beat you I was just joking lol lighten up ;)

I'm just one of those people that sees what I see and your one of those people that sees what you see, I think yoshi's in top 5, i dont say best... but top 5 for sure... you dont because you can see his lows... lol big whoop... but anyways I will not debate anymore because Nori said why debate when my mind is set... well because its fun and i'm bored? duh ;) Anyways, good i'm glad yoshi isnt top tier.. maybe people will quit crying about his top tierness when I beat them now ;)
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pixel09 said:
The change in Tira's stances isn't always so clear. I've had the yellow/purple effect not show several times. It hasn't cost me a match, but it can throw you off for a second. If you're in a loud environment where you can't hear her voice change and she doesn't do the change effect, it can be difficult to figure out right away what mood she's in.

The key reason I think she is low tier, possibly lower than Rock is how absolutely nerfed she got in the 1.03 patch.

1. She wasn't even good at soul crushes, yet she got the sticky part of the patch with several key SC moves going from 13 to 30+ to SC.

2. Her ring out game was pretty average before, yet nerfed by the patch. JS 66AA only rings out at the very edge now, and looks incredibly stupid seeing the opponent curve around the edge as if they had nulify ring out.

Adding on to her clear weakness to sidestep right that maybe three of her moves can catch reliably (either slow and/or punishable).

Also, she is the only character I know that has a 33% chance of hurting themselves twice as bad as the opponent using JS 44K for -12 punishment, that's a big lol in my book.
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Wow, that's a heck of a lot of strange reasons for your oppinion.

First off, the color flash on stance change ALWAYS happens, it's just often VERY fast. Let's say Raph does 6B,B. If the FIRST B knocks you down to 30% health, you will change and the flash will occur, but it will ONLY LAST UNTIL YOU'RE HIT AGAIN. In the 6B,B case you'll only flash during the span of time between the first and second B's. It's annoying, yes, but so long as you know what health you have left it's a minor issue.

Second, she was BARELY nerfed at all in 1.03 and certainly not more than anyone else. In fact, because he 2A no longer whiffs, I'd say it was an overall improvement from 1.02 (which would aid her in the tiers since a lot of others got hammered)

Here's why:

Tira has NEVER had a good ring out OR soul crush game. In fact, I'd say she had (and still has) a HORRIBLE ring out game and a MAYBE average soul crush game. She has never been able to reliably pressure for ring out and if people were blocking enough to get CF-ed by Tira, then they're just not used to playing against her.

So basically, they nerfed two areas that she had practically nothing in to begin with. Hence, you should be playing Tira EXACTLY the same way after the patch as before (aside from maybe using a few more GS 2As).

Lastly, she doesn't have a 33% chance of hurting herself more by doing JS 44K. She will ALWAYS do the same damage to herself so long as you DON'T HOLD K! Try it out. Small damage when you do JS 44K, LARGE self damage when you do JS 44[K].


Everyone seems to be kicking her down to low tier because of all these misconceptions they have about her. Most of what people say about her is pretty wrong when you've actually learned how to play her.
 
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