1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Ravariel]

So there are no horizontal SG options for her anymore.

Well, 44B rapes the gauge, but is ridiculously easy to avoid. Can be fun if they're trapped in a corner, though.

Also, Mina takes FAR less work than Taki to do well, at least in my experience. I've been playing both since SC1, and both have changed about the same amount since then. Mina for the worse, Taki for the better. Her PO games are far improved from previous editions, and are easy enough to pull off and win with. Ninja Bombs are usually good for free damage once or twice a match (more against scrubs)... Mina has nothing like those tools. She's far more space-dependent in a game where space is difficult to make, both in damage and move-efficacy. She's not horrible by any means, but she just doesn't rank with other chars.

Edit: I should have said Mina takes far MORE work than Taki... wow, that just invalidated everything I said... teach me to proofread...

 

[arstal]

That's why I say the work is different.

Taki has a lot more technical stuff to master, but her gameplan doesn't have to adjust to what the other guy is doing as much, and she can get out of trouble a lot easier with her quick attacks.

Mina takes more careful planning and thinking. She doesn't have a lot of technical stuff, but in return for that, she lacks damage and has a tough time getting out of trouble.

 

[BatousaiNori]

You always come with the backed up, not everybody has a x character in their area to somehow give you "more validity". So what? Texas is now the only place with good players? It's really disrespectful and annoying too.

That's not at all what I meant. Canada is solid all the way around because they have a big list of good players. So does TX. So does Cali. Notice they are 2 big states and a country? That's a LOT of variety. Not every state/city has that comp. Some cities only have 1 good player (who can be elite if he had some good comp but doesn't). I certainly didn't mean one state is better than another (that would be an entirely different argument), I just meant (and it's a fact) not every state/city has an elite player repping the char properly.

For example: Houston and Dallas are major cities, and have elite players. In San Antonio, I can tell you we only have the following chars covered in and out:

Voldo
Cervy
Cass
Sophie
Setsuka
Rock
Taki
Ivy
Mitsu
Yoshi
Siegfried

As you see, we're missing some chars. Now imagine some cities/states w/even LESS competition. I hope you get my point;)

As far as your post to Kilik/Mina, again, I can't take you putting them on top seriously. I just can't. I borderline want to think you're joking and are gonna say "haha just kidding guys, my little brother got on here and posted". Seriously dude, you've been playing this game a while, I cannot believe you think those AT BEST Mid tier chars are BETTER than Ivy (If somebody broke down why she's the best in the game, I wouldn't be surprised). You think Kilik/Mina are better than Cervy? Mitsu? Sisters? Voldo? Algol? Dude, come on now, think about what you're saying. Don't just like the char, beat up your buddies and think he/she is sick. They don't suck, obviously, but TOP tier?

Tell you what: If a Kilik/Mina ever win a major (w/good players in it, I'm talking MAJOR) I will refer to this post and acknowledge how you were right, how we were ALL wrong. I think that's pretty fair. I mean, it won't happen, but I think it's fair.

 

[BatousaiNori]

RedJinn: You're playing Sophie now? HA! Welcome to the dark side! I dropped Cass though. Only playing Cervy now. Don't think I need a backup yet. We'll see I guess. And yes, Mitsu has been and always will be top tier in every game he has been in. As long as you can't guard 2k, B on reaction (I'm SURE one of you will be like "yeah, well I know this guy". No. Just no) he will be sick. Mitsu is excellent, has all the tools to win, period.

 

[arstal]

Tell you what: If a Kilik/Mina ever win a major (w/good players in it, I'm talking MAJOR) I will refer to this post and acknowledge how you were right, how we were ALL wrong. I think that's pretty fair. I mean, it won't happen, but I think it's fair.

No one's saying top tier. At least I'm not. I'm only saying solid mid that's capable of winning a tourney with a lot of skill. Really, I don't think any character has zero chance in a tourney, outside of Rock, though some have much better chances then others.

 

[BatousaiNori]

No one's saying top tier. At least I'm not. I'm only saying solid mid that's capable of winning a tourney with a lot of skill. Really, I don't think any character has zero chance in a tourney, outside of Rock, though some have much better chances then others.

Most people aren't say Kilik is top tier, you're right. I agree he's mid, maybe barely upper mid. Barely. Maybe. But Angrel-San is insisting not only is Kilik top tier, Mina too. That's just silly talk

 

[Omega]

Well i think is to early to talk about top tiers, but there is something thats been pissing me of and is Setsuka an Mitsurugis game its the same stupid shit, guess what im going to do, im a going to use a low move or a HI move? im tired of the same silly mind game thats why i stop using mitsurugi is so stupid 2kb or 3b wich one of those 2 moves im going to use guess, Setsu its the same 1aa or 3b or 33b or the fact that B+K takes 86% of damage andddddd also breaks the soul gauge with only 10 hits oooo and also is practicly safe i dont see anyone talking about that, o and i forgot about 33b the best launcher in the game, its safe, extremly fast,she docks, and has an amazing range, o and also if it hits you in normal hit is 54% damage, in counter you could do a 73 damage combo andddd all that with nothing to lose, just use 33b and everything will be fine.Im tired of this same bullshit here we call them the japan team mitsu and setsu.

O BTW IM Norman from DR, un saludo para todos mis hermanos de PR, and hello all the people who were really cool on my trip to Chicago and of course my boys from texas.

I have to say that this forum is really awsome i never liked caliburforum at all thats why i never posted there, congrats to the guys who did this i think it was Jaxel who had the idea, keep it up man.

 

[Maxou]

It's true that Setsuka is top tier but not because of her lows.
1AAA is not that insible though most of times, people who do things they can see it get hit by mids. It is not that abusable though it's safer than in SC3. Not like Mitsu's 2K,B.

Setsuka has nearly everything a character can dream of : (when I say good it can mean it's insane :) )
- very rewarding step
- good damage
- safety
- good anti step tools
- good evasives moves
- good autoGI
- good GI game
- good spacing
- good frame traps
- good speed
- good range
- good CF game
- good punishing game
- good throws.
- average to good lows
- average to good RO game

She's one of the most complete character in the game, she doesn't have a single negative match up and she's really strong against the "said top tier".
She's way stronger than Sophitia IMO.

 

[Angrel-San]

I agree with everything you said about Setsuka Maxou, except the non negative matchups.

Kilik has an advantage in this match and Yoshimitsu fares pretty well too.

But whatever, top tier post patch indeed. ^_^

 

[Angrel-San]

Most people aren't say Kilik is top tier, you're right. I agree he's mid, maybe barely upper mid. Barely. Maybe. But Angrel-San is insisting not only is Kilik top tier, Mina too. That's just silly talk

Cool, that's your prerogative.

I have talked with some select peeps about her strats and they are starting to see the light. Maybe top tier isn't the right place as she has horrible matchups against Hilde, Amy, and Setsuka but the rest she either wins or is even. Top 10 character easily.

I already spoke about Kilik on CF and he's definitely top tier.

Nori, if you don't believe, that's cool! Both Kilik and Mina aren't the cookie cutter type characters.

 

[Maxou]

Well Yoshimitsu is the match up I know the best (I often play one in the top3 France Yoshimitsu) and I really don't agree with you.
Even with iMCF(the Yoshimitsu I play can do it 100% of the times), Yoshimitsu just can't compete against a good Setsuka.
Yoshimitsu lacks good punitions moves (especially from FC) so I can use unsafe moves like 11A as I want, he strugles to get into MCF range and when he is, unsafe moves get punished easily by Setsuka, each option he does is risky and even low risk against Setsuka turn into very heavy punition.

As for Kilik, Setsuka beats him at his best range (well not exactly his best range but really close to his best range), and up close he just has Asura that gives Setsuka difficulties. Setsuka wants to turtle against a good Kilik anyway. Playing long ranged against her is a no-no. What "kills" the match up is the damage difference too. Compare Kilik damages against Setsuka's... I can even afford to get hit by the 3rd hit of Asura if I block the first two and I try to punish.

 

[Wolfkrone]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Fuck what you heard....... this time around! My man Yoshi is top tier and yes I'm using him :) but I Started with him in Soul Calibur 1 so i'm not a bandwagon bitch :) haha

yoshi is in the low tier
Its alll about hilde

 

[Angrel-San]

When are you doing 11A in the fight? There are many ways to punish that move. And yes, Setsuka has the punishment in her favor but Yoshimitsu still has the standing mixes and the wakeup in his (and no, not talking DGF mixups) . Both throw games are comparable damage and Yoshimitsu can heal. Your partner heals properly from SDGF? I think the wakeup and the mixes coupled with the healing give him a small edge.

As for Kilik, his aGIs (especially BP) give her a hard time and at mid range, his options are safe and kill gauge.

Check your PMs.

 

[Angrel-San]

I'm done with tier talk.

SC4 has great balance and there will always be tiers but the gap between low and top is so small in this game (and current patch version) that IMO is just nitpicking for crumbs and not worth it really.

Is all about improving your game.

 

[Omega]

It's true that Setsuka is top tier but not because of her lows.
1AAA is not that insible though most of times, people who do things they can see it get hit by mids. It is not that abusable though it's safer than in SC3. Not like Mitsu's 2K,B.

Setsuka has nearly everything a character can dream of : (when I say good it can mean it's insane :) )
- very rewarding step
- good damage
- safety
- good anti step tools
- good evasives moves
- good autoGI
- good GI game
- good spacing
- good frame traps
- good speed
- good range
- good CF game
- good punishing game
- good throws.
- average to good lows
- average to good RO game

She's one of the most complete character in the game, she doesn't have a single negative match up and she's really strong against the "said top tier".
She's way stronger than Sophitia IMO.

Jejejej we are in the same page here im glad someone sees the same thing that i see o and remember is not good range is abusive range at an amazing speed.

 

[arstal]

I'm done with tier talk.

SC4 has great balance and there will always be tiers but the gap between low and top is so small in this game (and current patch version) that IMO is just nitpicking for crumbs and not worth it really.

Is all about improving your game.

I wouldn't go that far, but I think this is the most balanced SC, and overall balance is between VF and Tekken.

 

[arstal]

Cool, that's your prerogative.

I have talked with some select peeps about her strats and they are starting to see the light. Maybe top tier isn't the right place as she has horrible matchups against Hilde, Amy, and Setsuka but the rest she either wins or is even. Top 10 character easily.

I already spoke about Kilik on CF and he's definitely top tier.

Nori, if you don't believe, that's cool! Both Kilik and Mina aren't the cookie cutter type characters.

Mina horrible against Amy and Setsuka?

Do explain. I thought they were even matchups.

The only matchup that makes me shudder with Mina is Ivy.

 

[powerincarnate]

I wouldn't go that far, but I think this is the most balanced SC, and overall balance is between VF and Tekken.

Overall balance is between VF and VF period. You can take what is perceived as the worst guy in the game and not just win, but win a lot in VF. They are so meticulous at introducing new characters as to not mess up balance that with 5 games under the their belt, and several "half" evolution/reloaded games as well, they still boast less than 20 playable characters. Not the case with Tekken. And Not the case in this game. When your including characters for fun, these things happen. When you taking characters movelist and spreading it between two characters, your bound to have one of them get the short end of the stick. When you are consistently favoring your "poster boy characters" or for whatever reason, the same3, 4, 5 characters always seem to find their way up on the top tier list game after game after game, then you are bound to have these differences.


Now with that said, the previous guy said Setsuka has average to good lows, please tell me what is he/she doing that I seem to not be doing as her lows are poor to horrendous. Her saving grace is due to A. Her throw game is good, B. She has some quick damaging mids for when the guy crounches to block low. These mind games make it so that you can sneak in a few lows per game. But down A+B takes a century to come out and you can block on reaction. d/b, d/b A also is slow, doesn't knock down except on counter hit. d/b AA has ZERO range, and has so much lag time if blocked. her few kick lows are decent to interupt but everyone has descent low kicks, for at least one of them, she has no range. Setsuka is good, but lets not exagerate a few things to make her seem even better.

 

[E.C]

Mina's answer to up close rushdown is to never get in that position. She does have the tools to do that. That's why I say she's a balanced Mid.

Mina WILL get into that position, and she has limited tools to get out of it and stay out of it. Even so, they're not that good against any of the top characters (4A is Angel Stab-punishable).

And honestly, I'm still unconvinced about her WS/FC game. For one, she can only get into WS/FC from a handful of moves that don't give her super frame adv to stop someone from BBing or stepping. For another, at the range that she can use all her options, she's doing so-so damage for all of them except maybe FC 1KK (which is again, horribly unsafe and blockable on reaction). WS B launch property is rarely an option except for the odd time that 2B or 2A+B~G fools someone.

WS A is either negative frames or zero on hit. WS AA can be GIed even if the first hit connected.
WS B and WS 1B are both great on block, but they are extremely linearly, and Mina's problem is that she can't effectively keep someone from stepping.

I just don't see Mina as a solid mid. People say that's she's underplayed and thus underrated, but I'm willing to say that the people who think that she's a solid mid don't have opps that are familiar with her and overrate her.

She's low mid (if not low). And certainly not top tier.

 

[WareEaglesDare]

tags....horses? Can someone please tell me what is going on with tags?

Edit: ok... gone now.