1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Lag helps Maxi in his game.

Offline, he suffers. And online isn't considered at all for ranking characters.

But I agree with you on this, he isn't low tier.
 
Angrel-San said:
Lag helps Maxi in his game.

Offline, he suffers. And online isn't considered at all for ranking characters.

But I agree with you on this, he isn't low tier.
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i dont understand why maxi's game is helped by lag, everyones game is helped by lag. Thats a very vauge statment. and suffers offline?...i strongly disagree. I play with him offline all the time. Have since sc2. Dont really have that big a problem. Im not gonna say that I kick ass everytime, but i feel he is very competative with the rest of the cast. Some characters require different fighting styles (obviously) but i got a good game for the entire cast.

However, thanx for agreeing with me on the not low tier thing. I dont think hes top tier or anything, im just bummed people dont consider him a contender!
 
i disagree that he suffers offline. The mix-ups that he has are very solid, frame wise. And i agree for the most part with Dave about lag. Every one is getting the same lag, so i don't see how it helps Maxi any more. Sure, lag helps when you have a 3 connection and all you are doing is throwing out RC KK, but when you get a good 5 bar connection going, the lag isn't really that noticeable. I'm still able block lows, duck throws, and slip my interrupts in between their attacks, so i don't see how the rest of the cast shouldn't be able to either.
 
Oh come on.

Just because a character places in a tourny doesn't mean they should go up a tier. Now, I'm not saying Talim is low or mid or whatever but Jaxel was winning some tournies with Talim in SC3 when she was even worse than she is now.

Jaxel is a pretty solid player and I'd wager that there's a rather large "surprise!" factor in playing one of the least used characters in the game.

Now then, if Talim's start placing in MULTIPLE tournies (and that means not just played by ONE player), THEN you should start to question tier placement.

Oh, and that Tier list was updated 1 week ago. Tidus has been updating it whenever there seems to be a general consensus as to a character's placement. It is an official or final list by far, but in general it seems fairly accurate.

Again, the only thing that jumps out at me as plain "wrong" about that list is most of Mid Tier. Taki, Lizzy and Ivy should all go up a tier. I think there are A LOT of characters in Upper Mid in this game.


And I know it stings to see Maxi so low, but I think he's right where he belongs. He was my main in both SC2 and 3 and I still play him fairly frequently in 4. He's just provides ZERO reason for the opponent to duck. 1A and 1K are his best lows and one is easily blocked on reaction and the other is negative frames. His lows from stances are crap too since they either do practically no damage or are VERY easily blockable on reaction (RC K,K:K anyone?)

I don't know which mixups you guys are exactly talking about that are "solid, frame wise" because he has none. Seriously, what mixups are you talking about? Tell me why I should duck against him or a decent setup that I can't just kick you ass after I block it.
 
His solid mix-ups are in BL/BL=>neutral, and his great frame entrance into them is RO A. I whore this shit all day. Also, 4BBK is pretty great frame wise. As far as making people duck, Maxi's throw game is pretty good, and BL KK can catch people when properly mixed up. BL KK comes out at a similar speed as BL=>neutral 3B/4B. BL is like i22 or i23 i think, while BL=>neutral 3B/4B comes out at i28. Plus, if they are fast enough to see BL KK isn't coming and they can stand in time for 3B/4B, you can mix-up throws.
RO A, the lead in to most of these BL mix-ups, puts Maxi at +3 on block (+13 on hit), which makes BL's fastest attack(BL B) come out at i13. This, combined with the threat of RO AK, is enough to stop anyone from trying to attack immediately after blocking RO A. And to cover the gap in frames between BL B/RO AK and the wonderful BL KK/BL => Neutral mix-up, we have BL A. If the opponent tries to attack after RO A(after waiting to see RO AK isn't coming), BL A will catch them on counter hit, leading to a pretty damaging combo.
And if you think you can just use a TC move every time you block 3B, you are wrong (cept maybe sophie and cass). Unless your character has a left tracking TC mid that is faster than i16, there is no way to stop Maxi from reaching this mix-up without the risk of eating a pretty hefty CH combo from his other RO options.
Seems pretty solid to me, but maybe you could enlighten me on where the holes are.

And regarding another character, I really don't think Rock is bottom tier either. I'd say hes more bottom mid. His moves aren't really that great frame wise, a lot of his moves can be punished. He does have a few moves that are safe and lead to good damage though (2A+K, FC 3K). What I think puts him above bottom tier though is his ground game. I swear, I think Rock has the best ground game of anyone in the cast. He has pretty awesome wake up mixes, between throws/4A+B/2B+K/214:A:::A:::A:. And to force people to actually stand up into these wake-up situations, he has his ground throws. All rock really needs is one knockdown and he can end a match. Sometimes getting this knockdown can be a bitch since his shit is slow, but still, i think his ground game merits him a bottom mid spot.
 
I don't know enough about Rock to comment and I like that you went in depth with Maxi. Thanks for actually SAYING something other than "He's the best you don't even KNOW!"

Basically I've found that A LOT of characters 3K's shut Maxi down HARD. Some can't do it as well, but since his B+K auito-Gi doesn't work on kicks it pretty much stops everything after a blocked stance transition.

As for all those plus frames on block you're talking about, they're pretty much all bad (well, more like misleading) data. One of the only legitimate plus frame on block moves that he has is 33bA. The rest of the frame data is only talking about his frame stall until he can do the next stance move. As a general rule, this means that Maxi is unsafe on block from 90% of his stance transitions.

As I said, some characters can't do it as effectively as others, but anyone with a fast TC move or a fast 3K (or something similiar) pretty much shuts Maxi's stances down the vast majority of the time. And if you can't get INTO the stances to get to some of his faster lows (BL K,K and BL B I think though it's a problem that they're both in one stance), then they don't constitute a mixup.

Also, Maxi's throw game is, in fact, horrible. His throw damage is lower than ever, he has no command throws, and no ring out throws (minus his back throw I think). He also has only decent at best ukemi (2B+K,B is his best option which is only NC on some characters) that leaves him wide open on block.
 
Rico said:
I don't know enough about Rock to comment and I like that you went in depth with Maxi. Thanks for actually SAYING something other than "He's the best you don't even KNOW!"

Basically I've found that A LOT of characters 3K's shut Maxi down HARD. Some can't do it as well, but since his B+K auito-Gi doesn't work on kicks it pretty much stops everything after a blocked stance transition.

As for all those plus frames on block you're talking about, they're pretty much all bad (well, more like misleading) data. One of the only legitimate plus frame on block moves that he has is 33bA. The rest of the frame data is only talking about his frame stall until he can do the next stance move. As a general rule, this means that Maxi is unsafe on block from 90% of his stance transitions.

As I said, some characters can't do it as effectively as others, but anyone with a fast TC move or a fast 3K (or something similiar) pretty much shuts Maxi's stances down the vast majority of the time. And if you can't get INTO the stances to get to some of his faster lows (BL K,K and BL B I think though it's a problem that they're both in one stance), then they don't constitute a mixup.

Also, Maxi's throw game is, in fact, horrible. His throw damage is lower than ever, he has no command throws, and no ring out throws (minus his back throw I think). He also has only decent at best ukemi (2B+K,B is his best option which is only NC on some characters) that leaves him wide open on block.
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3K does not shut down this mix-up (and as I said earlier, neither does a TC move unless it is a left tracking mid that is faster than i16). If they try to 3K after blocking RO A, you could have either thrown BL A and caught them CH for a fat combo (comes out i16 after RO A, and they are gonna lose AT LEAST a couple frames if they are checking for RO AK), or you could have thrown BL B to beat out the 3K (comes out at i13 and leads back into RO A). After frustrating the opponent long enough with this, they will start blocking after RO A, giving you your desired mix-up. The lock-down potential from whoring this is pretty nice, since you can go 3B~RO A~BL=>neutral 3B~RO A.......... You will eventually be pushed out too far, but then you can just throw a 4BBK instead to get back in with + frames.

And the frame data is great the way it is. It makes perfect sense when you think about how Maxi actually works. You don't want to just start blocking after you do a stance transition move, the block frames are generally pretty horrible. Instead, its better to use the frame data to determine which following attacks will beat out the opponents counters. If you want to end a stance safely, use a stance move that ends in neutral stance, or train the opponent to expect an attack allowing you the extra frames to block.

And as far as his throw games, the damage may be down, but its still enough damage to encourage them to duck. He has decent set-ups to his throws too (2A, RO A~BL=>neutral, LO A). And with my style of play(whoring this mix-up), i am almost always right in the opponents face so range isn't an issue. On grounded opponents, i've always found that 2B+K B and A+Bg ~ RC is enough to stop opponents from just staying on the ground. And when they do get up, 3B is a pretty awesome move to greet them with. If they try to attack, they will eat the CH, leading to a nice combo. If they stand and block, back to the ol' mix-up. If you guess wrong and they start rolling, RO A will follow them to the right. If they roll left, you can still try to surprise them by following RO A with a BT B+K.

The fact is, in this game, Maxi has more options than ever to deal with the opponents various counters. Most of the stances have options in them that complement each other, preventing the opponent from doing any one thing to stop Maxi from looping. Look at RO. The A in it is fast(i13, or i9 following 3B) and sidesteps, stopping quick attacks. The RO B is fast enough(off of 3B) to beat out TC moves like Asta's 6K or siegs 3B. The RO K will jump over quick lows like 2A. This forces the opponent to actually guess what you are going to do if they want to interupt. If they guess wrong and you do RO B or RO K, the damage ends up being in the 60s. If they decide to just stand and block, they face the frame advantage set-ups after a blocked RO A.
 
Well I finally got down to some testing to tell me what I already knew: It's pretty easy to stop Maxi's stance transitions.

I only messed with a few characters but every one of them thus far has good options to shut down Maxi.

Maxi's 3B --> Stance mixups: On block, 90% of characters K or 3K will stop 3 out of 4 of Maxi's main options (the only one it doesn't is RO A). Some characters, such as Lizardman, have a free hit after a blocked Maxi 3B by doing 66K since it techs under RO A and is faster than all other options. If you don't want to risk the RO A hit, ALL characters can quick duck the RO A option and still have time to stand and block the B or K options. This is even easier to do than it sounds.

Maxi's 3B --> RO A blocked: Most characters can perform a 8K or other TJ move that avoids everything (including BL A since it's so short range) except for the completed RO A,K. This is for those that don't want to do the quick duck listed above.

Maxi's 6A --> Stance mixups: This was the biggest blow in my opinion. 95% of characters stop ALL options after a blocked 6A with a simple K. Most characters can get even better things such as 3K, or in Lizzy's case, CH 2B,K for crazy damage.

As it stands, pretty much every setup for your RO A games is easily defeatable by most of the cast. EVERY character has options that shut down at least 3 out of 4 of Maxi's option from most stances and those are obviously terrible odds.
 
yeah, lizard man may be able to beat that because 66K is a i16 TC mid that covers step. But really, how many characters have one of these. And as for doing a jumping move, yeah, RO AK is all it takes to stop that, though really, the BL=>neutral 4B is likely to beat that out unless they are just throwing it out there as soon as they see RO A.
And if they do duck the RO A and try to stand and block the followups, who cares, thats the point. If they are gonna stand around and try to block the attack, that means you have bought yourself enough time to cancel BL to neutral and throw out 3B or 4B for a mix-up reset. With the exception of a few characters, you can't just use any one move to get out of this. You are gonna have to guess right.
And as for the odds, you are going off if the move choices were completely random and you aren't factoring in the reward for being right. Not all characters are gonna have great fast TC options that track. Based off of the character you are facing, you are gonna have an idea of their counter options. And on top of that, things like 2A that beat RO B will lose to RO K. This is a tradeoff of like 14 damage if the opponent guesses right vs. 60 something if Maxi is right.
With the exception of a few characters, you can't just use any one move to get out of this. You are gonna have to guess right.
It really comes down to, can you guess your opponent better than they can guess you?
As for 6A, its always been punishable on block. Its still good though. Comes out at i15 and has very good range. Just don't abuse this one like you would 3B and 4B.

*edit: did some testing myself earlier. Sophie and Cas can beat both RO A and RO B with their 236Bs, but i found that the timing is different. Unless i just suck, it seems that you have to let her 236 go a little longer to beat RO A -- if you just do instant 236B they get hit by RO A. But if the sisters don't do instant 236B and Maxi does RO B, Maxi will beat them out.
Also did some testing against Lizzy. It is true that 66K beats all RO options after blocked 3B, but i found it interesting that 3B PSL2 evades 66K allowing for RC punishment.
 
I don't think that there's any point to updating it in such a way as there's enough dissagreement when people see their character in a tier they don't like, let alone seeing them behind a single character they don't like.

If we were ranking the characters in exact order then there would be no need for "Tiers" at all.
 
Rico said:
I don't think that there's any point to updating it in such a way as there's enough dissagreement when people see their character in a tier they don't like, let alone seeing them behind a single character they don't like.

If we were ranking the characters in exact order then there would be no need for "Tiers" at all.
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beautifully put rico....someone close this worthless thread down!!
 
Rico said:
I don't think that there's any point to updating it in such a way as there's enough dissagreement when people see their character in a tier they don't like, let alone seeing them behind a single character they don't like.
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Yeah but there is a difference between a tier they don't like VS. a tier they deserve. When there's a general consensus that Yoshi belongs close to the top or Rock belongs close to the bottom, its based on valid reasons.
 
Nonono, I think you misunderstood me.

I'm all for tier discussion in general, I just don't think it's worth it to bicker over EXACT placement (like, THIRD best in the game, for example).

I mean, people can argue for a character being top tier in this game, but it's generally on a person-to-person basis whether or not Cassie or Yoshi should appear before the other in the "Top Tier" grouping.
 
Here's the way I see it. I've only listed the characters who are majority tourney legal:

Top: Hilde,Yoshi, Voldo, Cass, X, Sophie
High mid: Kilik, Mitsu, Taki, Sieg, Amy, Setsuka, Cervy, Ivy
Mid: Lizzy, Nightmare, Asta, Maxi, Tira
Low: Talim, Yun, Raph, Zas, Mina
Bottom: Apprentice, Rock

I won't place Kilik in Top for the controversy surrounding his character at the moment. Not that I don't believe he belongs there.

And Maxi is SOOO underrated it's not even funny. He's just a risky character. High risk high reward. He also requires a bit more effort at high level.

Also. If it weren't for Hilde, Yoshi and Voldo would be running Top tier city. One deals sick damage, the other can regain 60 percent of his health back at will if you can be consistent with it, not to mention both are combo fiends. Both are unpredictable as well, nothing is or seems routine about them. Although Yoshi is probably the riskiest character in the game seeing as he has a lot of unsafeness. Not to mention if you aren't flawless in execution, you'd be hurting yourself more so than your opponent. In the hands of a master, both Yoshi and Voldo are the most versatile and dangerous characters on the roster IMO.

Edit: Amy is now high mid thanks to Tiamat and his "lulz" hehe.
 
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