1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Tiamat]

Good Hildes and Algols will probably dominate Evo.

yup

i personally think raph should be mid tier but i know that will never happen no enough people play him

i think hes low mid because no one competes as raph

I think Raph is pretty good actually, that's why I put him in C on my list (which is "mid"). If you wanna know why, I can go into detail.


as for the WS A Nori keeps talking about, it's a good move and he's probably talking about the combo from it which leaves Cervy in a position for his strong BT mixups

 

[BatousaiNori]

as for the WS A Nori keeps talking about, it's a good move and he's probably talking about the combo from it which leaves Cervy in a position for his strong BT mixups

Yes sir! And people don't realize how EASY it is to hit WS A on people. If you guess wrong you lose half your life and either way, you end up on top of them for wakes. Shit is NASTY

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

Tiamat:

I forgot to reply to you about Xianghua. Turns out her FC 3B has noticeably LESS range than her 3B. And at tip range, FC 3B can't even combo with 3B+K or 66A. Her whiff punishing is gay. I'd rather counter hit with 3B. Anyway, because I think SC4 wins are heavily based on big damage interrupts, I'm pretty convinced Xianghua is not worthy of A tier. I say B tier. Her overall lack of range and damage compared to others is my deciding factor. Okay, just thought you may want to know.

 

[MAILBOXARSON99]

Here is my tier list. I think it's superior to Tiamat's because I posted later than he did (jk)

S: Hilde, Algol, Amy
A: Kilik, Voldo, Setsuka, Sophie
B: Cass, Asta, Cervy, Lizardman, Yoshi, Ivy, X
C: Raph, Sieg, Taki, Apprentice, Mitsu
D: NM, Yun, Maxi, Tira
E: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina

Why is everyone still hatin' on Nightmare? He seems very solid, at least as much as Siegfried.

BTW, if anyone has already posted some info regarding Nightmare's tier placement, a link or quote would be helpful.

 

[Tiamat]

mailbox: I agree. The reason people place Sieg higher is because his strengths are more obvious, and his weaknesses not so obvious. By contrast, Nightmare's weaknesses are obvious and this strengths are not so obvious. Despite this, I do not think Sieg is necessarily better, Nightmare just requires more abstract thinking to be able to work properly.

NM's normal hit damage on launchers, okizeme, throw range, low block punish, whiff punishing, retreating evasion (B+K), and RO/wall ability are better than sieg's. Sieg generally has better attack speed, frametraps, TC moves, standing mixups, and standing block punish. The stuff listed for Sieg is generally seen as being more easily applied, and thus more valuable than the good stuff NM has (assuming they realize nm is better in these categories in the first place).

 

[docvizzo]

2A+B on CH leads to WS A nastiness. 3B is still one of the best launchers in the game, leading up to gun, iGDR for 60+ damage PLUS wakes

iGDR IMO is the best move in the game, still. TC/TJ/very fast/punishes a LOT of moves in the game

But isnt 2A+B the good Move then?? a ch 2A+B leads to a free iGDR (Relaunch)~4A+K~1K with 75 Damage, which is actaully better Damage wise than the WS A Combo...

The BT 2K/ B+K Mixup after a WS A~aK can be both avoided by 8wayrunning to Cervys Left. Just press [2] after aK and both BT B+K and 2K will whiff. Then again Cervantes can go for another WS A that will catch the 8wayrun attempt, its definetely a Mindgame in Cervys interest, but i dont feel its the move that will put up Cervantes higher. A blocked WS A will give your opponent exact the Damage you could get of a WS A, even more since almost everybody gets a launcher. Its not like this Move has superior Risk/Reward. 50/50. Hit, you'll give 50 Damage + BT Game, Block- you'll eat 60 Damage.

After 2 A+B again its really good, but as i said there is also the iGDR Follwup.

And Nori stop telling people its half Life :) Its 50, maybe 60 if you go for 3A+B KND+ Ground Hitting Move. NOT MORE NOT LESS.

 

[BatousaiNori]

And Nori stop telling people its half Life :) Its 50, maybe 60 if you go for 3A+B KND+ Ground Hitting Move. NOT MORE NOT LESS.

Look at WS A, aK, BT B+K, 3B, iGDR. That's half life dude. I almost never have WS A blocked. It's meant to punish certain lows and punish whiffed highs/throws. If you just throw it out, like iGDR, you're dead. If you only throw it out when it's guaranteed, you have a top tier player.

Yes, 2A+B is great, so is iGDR. Lots of people are not educated on the greatness of Taki/Cervantes/Ivy but that's ok, Regionals/Nationals/Evo will fix that. Then people will talk about how great they are like they just discovered it haha

 

[Dreamkiller]

Yes, 2A+B is great, so is iGDR. Lots of people are not educated on the greatness of Taki/Cervantes/Ivy but that's ok, Regionals/Nationals/Evo will fix that. Then people will talk about how great they are like they just discovered it haha

But what happens when.
Ya know.
They're not.
And.
They dont.

 

[BatousaiNori]

But what happens when.
Ya know.
They're not.
And.
They dont.

All 3 have the tools to win a major tournament. None of them are broken or unbalanced but clearly, Cervantes is the best punisher in the game and you have to play EXTREMELY smart against him to win.

I was just talking w/some fellow top TX players and people are still surprised nobody is seeing how great Taki/Cervantes are, but hey, it's cool lol

 

[docvizzo]

Look at WS A, aK, BT B+K, 3B, iGDR. That's half life dude.

Yeah thats not a Combo. Its about the same Damage you would get without the WS A. I know what youre trying to say,but are the ones you are playing always ducking when Cervy is in BT? I would rather do nothing and eat 27 for a BT 2K or try do block it. But you cant say its halflife.You are referring to the best possible situation.

Right now i think iTP could push him when people really learn how to use it from midrange to whiff punish....


EDIT: And iGDR will never be used so perfect that you can use it as a punisher. You gotta know every Blockstun of unsafe Moves. That requires time. I'm pretty sure this wont happen at nationals.

 

[tribaL]

All 3 have the tools to win a major tournament. None of them are broken or unbalanced but clearly, Cervantes is the best punisher in the game and you have to play EXTREMELY smart against him to win.

I was just talking w/some fellow top TX players and people are still surprised nobody is seeing how great Taki/Cervantes are, but hey, it's cool lol

you've been saying that cervy is one of the top characters in the game for a lot of reasons since the game has come out (i can recollect 214:6 being one reason, now wsa being another). you also keep saying that there's no video evidence to support this because people aren't good enough with him. well, if you're good enough with him then why not post some vids up proving it?

i'm not agreeing, or disagreeing, with you, i just don't see what you're saying at this moment.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Yeah thats not a Combo. Its about the same Damage you would get without the WS A. I know what youre trying to say,but are the ones you are playing always ducking when Cervy is in BT? I would rather do nothing and eat 27 for a BT 2K or try do block it. But you cant say its halflife.You are referring to the best possible situation.

Right now i think iTP could push him when people really learn how to use it from midrange to whiff punish....


EDIT: And iGDR will never be used so perfect that you can use it as a punisher. You gotta know every Blockstun of unsafe Moves. That requires time. I'm pretty sure this wont happen at nationals.

Yeah, I actually do know of 2 Cervy players who punish a LOT of moves that are blocked w/iGDR.

And yes, I have trained everybody around me enough where BT is a great mixup. If you will let me do BT 2K all day, that's fantastic cause that damage. Also, read what I said above:

"If you guess wrong you lose half your life and either way, you end up on top of them for wakes." I'm 100% correct in what I'm saying. WS A leads to aK which leads to BT. That's when the mixup starts. I never claimed anything was guaranteed, you're taking everything I'm saying out of context, please read carefully above what I said.

WS A leads to one of the BEST and NASTIEST mixups in the game. It's easy to hit WS A on people also. Now if you don't like the move or it's not your style, that's fine, but other Cervantes players, including myself, are very successful using this move.

 

[docvizzo]

Actually i do like the Move. I use it alot. I just try to see it realistic.
Apart from that, ive never seen any of the stuff you're telling. You are setting the bar very very high. But hey, if cou can show us what you promise, everything is cool.

 

[TidalLeaf]

Cervantes is the best punisher in the game

Sorry, but this goes to the older sister (for block punishment at least. Whiff goes to someone else...)

 

[RiBu]

Sorry, but this goes to the older sister.

Cervanitia?

 

[TidalLeaf]

Cervanitia?

This man knows things

 

[BatousaiNori]

Actually i do like the Move. I use it alot. I just try to see it realistic.
Apart from that, ive never seen any of the stuff you're telling. You are setting the bar very very high. But hey, if cou can show us what you promise, everything is cool.

It's not that I'm setting the bar too high, you're setting yourself WAY too low. You should be very capable to punish a whiff on reaction, to punish certain moves w/iGDR, etc. I have been doing this for quite some time now, so it's not make believe fantasy land. Try this stuff out, it all works.

TidalLeaf: I'm assuming you mean Sophie, and no, she's certainly not LOL. iGDR is more damaging and punishes SOO many moves. Again, not everybody is up to speed on what it punishes, which is fine. Sophie also has to work WAY harder than Cervantes to win. Sophie is EXTREMELY overrated, the problem is, people make mistakes playing her and think she's amazing. She's not and other top players will attest to that.

 

[eltoshan]

Nori, if you're saying that one of the big reasons why Cervy is awesome is due to the damage off of the back turn mixup, then the same logic can be used to say that NM should be instant top tier because if you guess wrong on a tech/no-tech situation once you can potentially lose your entire life bar. I don't think that Cervy is safe enough to compete with the top tier cast.

also if you talk about punishing, setsuka can punish more moves and still knock down with JF Umbrella. Umbrella wall hit combos are over 70 damage as well.

 

[TidalLeaf]

TidalLeaf: I'm assuming you mean Sophie, and no, she's certainly not LOL. iGDR is more damaging and punishes SOO many moves. Again, not everybody is up to speed on what it punishes, which is fine. Sophie also has to work WAY harder than Cervantes to win. Sophie is EXTREMELY overrated, the problem is, people make mistakes playing her and think she's amazing. She's not and other top players will attest to that.

I didn't say she was top. I said shes one of the best (if not) at block punishing. Cervy doesn't touch her, sorry. Your iGDR is i15 (according to the data posted). I have an i13-15 punisher (depending on if I'm crouching and which one I choose to use) that is better (55-80dmg normally, up to 123 on some blocked moves). One of these punishers is safe, unlike iGDR which if you screw up, won't fuck you over. So, overall Sophie>Cervy in the block punishment department.

 

[BatousaiNori]

I didn't say she was top. I said shes the best at block punishing. Cervy doesn't touch her, sorry. Your iGDR is i15. I have an i13-15 punisher (depending on if I'm crouching and which one I choose to use) that is better (55-80dmg). One of these punishers is safe, unlike iGDR which if you screw up, won't fuck you over. So, overall Sophie>Cervy in the block punishment department.

When did 236B become safe? As far as I know, iGDR can punish 236B and I can get really good damage off of it. Up to 60 actually. Also, iGDR TC/TJs. Sophie doesn't.

eltoshan: Again, the common ignorance among the community is people looking at him and saying "Oh, he's not safe". Then how did a top player in 3 days get top 5 at a tournament w/Cervantes? How do other top players w/Cervantes stay so consistent, if he's so "unsafe"? Not many chars are completely safe. If you as a player can't exploit the others weaknesses, that's on you, not the char. Cervantes has a disgusting WS game. Disgusting punishing game. Great throw game. I've gotten nothing less than 2nd place minus my first tournament w/this char. I wasn't doing this good in part 2 and part 3, so clearly something changed in part 4. If you are trying to play Cervantes as a safe char, you're going to lose. You need defense and reaction time and he's the most rewarding char in the game hands down.

As far as what you're saying about Nightmare, I'm not going to comment on him because I have no good NM players around me to say he's good/bad. From what I understand, he's mid tier. Don't know?

Seriously, I'm being told left and right by top players on AIM/Flashchat/the phone not to bother w/this thread, but I am anyway, cause I believe that out of the 10 non believers I speak to today, SOMEBODY will try this guy out a while and see what the rest of the good players see.