1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Chickenwing said:
Also eltoshan: i would beast your setsuka, no questions asked. *Smiles* (don't take it personally...it's to build hype. people tend to take me seriously.....)
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You would beast my setsuka, cus mine's trash and I suck at her execution. My setsuka's a complete theory fighter, lol.
 
Chickenwing said:
I'm going to say no for 2 reasons...

1: After watching those vids between you and whodat, to where 1) you make whodat duck when he's eating 1B from Algol and 2) he's eating NM's 1A......yea....um. No, that video would be visual proof that you're contradicting yourself.

2: From Neorussel's Sig from caliburforum.com before it went down. "Once you block the low, the mix-ups begins"

Also eltoshan: i would beast your setsuka, no questions asked. *Smiles* (don't take it personally...it's to build hype. people tend to take me seriously.....)
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uh...what? Whodat almost always blocks 1A on reaction, though I sometimes use it as a whiff punish near walls. Whodat is a player who will duck if I spam throws enough, not everyone will do that. If the opponent decides to duck or not, that is THEIR decision not mine. If a player absolutely refuses to duck I will do my best to kill them with throw/1K spam, or possibly get my damage from counterhits, whiff punishes etc. The point is that I DO NOT need the opponent to duck in order to win.

YOU are wrong. If YOU need them to duck in order to win that is YOUR problem.
 
Tiamat said:
uh...what? Whodat almost always blocks 1A on reaction, though I sometimes use it as a whiff punish near walls. Whodat is a player who will duck if I spam throws enough, not everyone will do that. If the opponent decides to duck or not, that is THEIR decision not mine. If a player absolutely refuses to duck I will do my best to kill them with throw/1K spam, or possibly get my damage from counterhits, whiff punishes etc. The point is that I DO NOT need the opponent to duck in order to win.

YOU are wrong. If YOU need them to duck in order to win that is YOUR problem.
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Obviously, you don't NEED your opponent to duck. I'm not sure If I ever used the words "in order to get a win, you have to duck". What I said was, it makes things much MUCH harder if the other person REFUSES to duck.

Yes, you can throw.
Yes, they can whiff and you can punish them
You can sidestep and punish them

I wouldn't say it's my "problem". I'm not really doing too bad in this game, so I think I'm pretty good w/my logic. Cervantes has a very shitty CF game. Every Cervantes player will tell you this, it's a fact. I don't know much about NM, I'm assuming his is good, so if it yes, then yes, this doesn't really apply to you. This is also considering NM doesn't exactly have great lows anyway. Overall, the style you play has nothing to do w/tiers, or how I play so whatever works for you, cool. I'm assuming your method helps you consistently place in tournaments, so awesome
 
Actually, Dully, Nightmare's CF game is probably average. His 1[A]6~GSB wakeup rapes the gauge. 66A, 66B, 3B, 33B, 6B:B, 11B, bA, 1B, 9B, and 11K also do good soul gauge damage, plus quite a few of them are safe.
 
Even if CF was not in the game, and even if your character has weak lows, it would not be a problem to kill people who refuse to crouch block. Throw the shit out of them, wear them down with weak lows and win by time up if necessary. I don't see why this would be hard to understand.
 
Tiamat: why are you getting offended with what i said. i just pointed out that making your opponet duck, then it helps.....hence YOUR vids that you posted....that is all.
 
I initially thought Hilde wasn't top because she has multiple losing matchups, but I eventually realized that everybody in this game has losing matchups. As I've said elsewhere, it's Super Turbo-style balance, which I personally love.

I'm still skeptical of Algol as #1...pretty sure Kilik/Yoshi/Cervy all beat him, probably Hilde too. There isn't any one character who clearly stands out above everyone else...

If I had to guess at this point, I'd say top-tier is Voldo/Hilde/Kilik/Algol/Cervy. Next step down would be Setsuka & Amy, maybe Ivy (know nothing about her honestly). I'd put Taki in the group below that along with sisters, Yoshi, Asta, maybe some others.

Oh, btw, if we count Shura then there really shouldn't be any debate. She gets BT mixup from WS A -> 4BK on most of the cast.

Michael Jackson: The Japanese base their tier lists off of the matchup charts, actually. Look at total "wins" and make a new tier when there is a noticeable drop.
 
Nori said:
If I were the only person that thought so, then sure, I'm kidding myself. However, when at least 5 other top players agree w/me he's somewhere in top 5 here or there, then I'm obviously on the right track. The problem again is, how many people out there have gone against a Cervantes that knows what he's doing? That's like me having zero Hilde experience and saying she's not top tier. Have to keep an open mind

And I highly doubt you can block Cervante's 1k on reaction dude. Highly HIGHLY doubt it, no offense. Yoshi's FC3K, slow. DGF K, slow. Yoshi players have to be smart as hell to win now, it's not easy as it was when the game came out and nobody knew what was going on. Technically no, you can't block all lows on reaction. I'd LOVE to see somebody block Mitsu's 2K, B on reaction. Not anticipation, ACTUALLY seeing it and blocking. Nope, not happening dude
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I just want to add my opinion on Cervy. Back in the old tier list I commented how I thought Cervy was definitely one of the best chars (when he was I think top mid) and I got flamed for it. Now there is all this discussion on it again, well once again I say he is definitely top
 
Rock vs. Hilde match up AT BEST FOR ROCK is 4:6. I call it 3:7. Reason is Hilde's fast FCA and 6A+K lets her punish half of Rock's movelist. On Astarosh vs Hilde, I give it 4:6 at worse due to a slightly safer game from Astaroth's part. Tira... I don't know where to put my favorite psycho girl. Her matchups can swing depending whether the game gives you GS or JS when you need it most.
 
Here goes an opinion if anyone cares:

I think before these lists are final people need to first attack bad matchups for a character based off of character competence on moves that are practical in a match not just going through a list and say well he or she can punish half a movelist.

For example i'm gonna post a big ass post pretty soon but I wanted to know if anyone can agree with me on these so far.


Kilik: Bad Matchups (After extended playtime etc.)

Ivy - This matchup is by far Kilik's most horrid fight. It's like 80/20 and maybe 75/25 in Ivy's favor. She just beats him at everything even range.

Xiangua - Something like 60/40 in Xiangua's favor

Amy - Possibly not sure yet

After extended playtime Astaroth is not a bad matchup for Kilik. It's more like 50/50


Hilde: Bad Matchups

Astaroth -

Rock -

Amy -

Xiangua - Possible not sure yet.


Algol: Bad Matchups

Kilik -

Setsuka -

Cervy -

I believe their is room for more but need more testing and Tiamat your opinion would be most appreciated

Amy: Bad Matchups

This case is special and why I rate her so high. I have yet to see a bad matchup for Amy and honestly if she did more damage she would easily be #1.

Ivy: Bad Matchups

Can't say yet really but alot of people are underestimating her. Ivy's options are golden especially SW Stance.
 
wing_zero said:
SU - I feel like X/Amy are 50/50 matchups for Kilik. You also need to explain why Ivy is such a bad matchup for Kilik also :)
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I explained partially in the Kilik forum (U know where) go check it out. Other than that I will explain in more detail when I post the major huge post I was talking about.

Also yeah X and Amy don't really have any advantages over Kilik and i'm not really sure if Amy needs to be listed. However X does have at least a 60/40 0r 55/45 advantage over Kilik.
 
Algol matchups...you're not gonna hear much conclusive stuff for his "bad matchups" but here's my take at the moment

Algol vs Setsuka: I have not played vs Setsuka with Algol, nor have I seen enough vids to make a judgement. There are some old vids with LAU vs Chang's Friend but I have not seen them in a while, and I have not seen them all either.

Algol vs Kilik: This is certainly one of his most difficult matches but I am still not convinced one way or the other. wing zero seems to think algol is advantage, tl crow and BL dave seem to think Kilik is advantage. IMO very controversial and cannot be rated for the moment

Algol vs Cervy: I do have a fair amount of experience with this one. I would argue that Cervantes does not have advantage vs Algol. me and crow winters both say 5-5. ill copy and paste crow's blurb on it

V. Cervy:
- by crow_winters

5/5. Cervy absolutely dominates up close, particularly v. Algol, because of 1K. 1K is Cervy's way of making you duck. +1 on hit plus it forces crouch, which removes your ability to backdash post hit. Note that DP beats ALL Cervy FC options post 1K, including FC Grab. Outside of that, however DP overall kind of blows v. Cervy because of aB. If you duck you risk eating FC A+B (80 damage + tech trap) or 3B/iGDR. Blocked 1K gives very little reward for Algol. Outside of FC A+B, Algol out damages Cervy, and Cervy really can't punish most of Algol's best stuff. Algol can punish a LOT of stuff of Cervy's with AA or better. Cervy dosen't have a reliable way past bubbles- 4[B+K] /can/ work versus bubbles but it's also very easy to bait/punish. Cervy grab game is pretty low damage outside of the FC grab, which is always a B break and I've yet to run into a player that can make the FC animation "invisible" outside of 1K setup. Algol is probably best off v. Cervy's FC A+B GC gimmicks because he can DP after the frame trap all of Cervy's mid options and TC under the inevitable 66A "mixup". If the Cervy misses the JF you can get 30% life or more depending upon how you punish, and it's not hard to tell wether you were gaurd crushed or not. Cervy CAN punish the recovery of 4[A+B] and other slower bubbles if he does a psychic 6A+K gunshot at the same time. Backdash is really important in this matchup. Cervy has a ton of frame traps (1K on hit, the jumping kick on block) that allow him to pressure Algol in close, forceing you to risk DP/GI. It's going to boil down to how well you can fend off Cervy once he gets in and pressures you, and how well you handle getting hit by 1K/blocking FC A+B, which you will. Matchup becoems a lot harder once Cervy starts blocking and punishing DP. Remember that all his damage is from mids and the crouch grab B break, and know when/how to punish him.


Algol vs Hilde: this is IMO the main contender for an actual bad matchup for Algol. Ceirnian and Alex J are naturally the ones I think of here, though it is always possible that they are overlooking something important. for now this looks like either an even match or slight hilde advantage. for now, if you have to make a decision, say it's hilde advantage.
 
Tiamat:

Solid info and I believe thats the type of information people need from players who know how to use their character.

Setsuka vs. Algol - I actually take this statement back because i'm not exactly sure enough to make final judgements and mostly everything I relate to Setsuka is theoretical unlike other people in actual play. Something inside of me just screams that Setsuka is beastly and she could be a dominating force but unfortunately I have yet to see Setsuka used the way I imagine she could be. Also I had previously believed that Setsuka could stack up her Sakura Moon Dance combo off of Algol's bubbles but I was incorrect which if she could would be insane or just stop Algol from using them and in return make him less effective and Setsuka would clearly dominate him range wise and up close but lol that's out the window. (Damn I can only imagine what it would be like to see an insane Setsuka)

Algol vs. Cervy - Sounds like a plausable case based on your info so I guess we can wipe that off.

Algol vs. Kilik - I personally believe this is in Kilik's favor maybe like 60/40, 65/35 because generally Kilik does not have to worry about the range game vs. Algol with his bubbles. Kilik's 4B is golden here with precision against the bubble strat and even if bubbles interrupt the trade off damage is better in Kilik's favor. Kilik has the better throw game, Range game, and Algol on the inside isn't really that much of a threat. This is general for now but I will get in to better detail at a later date.

Algol vs. Hilde - Can't really say much on this as I personally haven't played this matchup eneough to argue any case but I can see how this can favor in Hilde's domain theoretically.
 
kilik and hilde are the only ones I even consider to be possible bad matchups, and even then it can't be worse than a 6-4 in their favor.

be cool if someone would make a matchup chart like the french one so we could fill stuff in. hm
 
KingAce said:
I am confused can't Algol just counter with 2A or 2K when Cervy lands 1K?
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No, because they're both in FC, and Cervy's at +1. If Cervy uses a slower move, then it could work. Otherwise, Cervy can just trade with 6K or use his own FC 2A (I'm not sure what the impact frame of it is, since his frame data's kinda gimped right now).
 
Dullyanna said:
No, because they're both in FC, and Cervy's at +1. If Cervy uses a slower move, then it could work. Otherwise, Cervy can just trade with 6K or use his own FC 2A (I'm not sure what the impact frame of it is, since his frame data's kinda gimped right now).
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This so far is what I have gathered. 1K is great because it leads to WSA or FC command grab mixup...or something to that effect right?

But algol can interrupt all that with 2A except for Cervy's 6K and iGDR.
Algol can also interrupt any thing after 1K lands including Cervy's 6K and iGDR. with 623B.

Also I didn't know this but Cervy's 1K WS A...Algol can jump over WS A.

So help me here cause I am quite confused.
 
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