1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Come to Nationals man! The kind of turtling you were doing in those vids looks like it would be effective against Hilde. I mean seriously your defense is top tier.
Hey thanks man, we are trying to reunite the money for EVO, there are some regionals on PR, we are also trying to get money to se if i can go to PR to participate and get a seat in Nats, again thanks for the compliments, are you going to EVO?
 
Hey thanks man, we are trying to reunite the money for EVO, there are some regionals on PR, we are also trying to get money to se if i can go to PR to participate and get a seat in Nats, again thanks for the compliments, are you going to EVO?

Right now I don't know for certain...however if I do I coming for that Zass vs Zass mirror match...and nothing else.
 
Maxou: We'll have to schedule a time where you and I will be in the chat at the same time; I will explain then :)

I kinda feel like Algol has no threatening mixups outside of BB/2B+K/Throw; I don't think he's #1 at all (then again, I do play with Kilik)...
 
Glad we finally convinced you, although this guy should be #1 imo. We'll study that deeper during another session on Friday, to which you're welcome to show up.

Yeah you did but at the same time my Mitsu is fairly scrubby so I'm stiil not to positive on him being #1. I probably won't make that due to tight money and a shitload of papers this weekend.

Don't worry though I will be Asura'ing my way through them turnstiles soon.

In regards to Maxou and Omega:

I'm curious to what your tier lists currently looks like out there. If yall don't mind can yall post the latest updated tier list in your area.

I kinda feel like Algol has no threatening mixups outside of BB/2B+K/Throw; I don't think he's #1 at all (then again, I do play with Kilik)...

Algol is a special case in that most of the characters in the game he can outright destroy. Roughly any short range character in the game. Though i'm starting to think Amy is one of the exceptions to short range as she can braindead poke her way to some extent on the inside since she's so damn fast and has fairly decent range. Kilik is unaffected by Algol whatsoever so that match can't be used as a basis for him.
 
Something Unique :

Well, Setsuka vs Kilik isn't really that bad of a match up for Setsuka. On the contrary, I believe Setsuka has the edge in this match up.
But I am interested in your reasons you say Setsuka is at a disadvantage against Kilik.

Wing-Zero :

If you want I can PM you my msn address.



My tier list :

S : Voldo, Hilde, Setsuka
A : Cervantes, Ivy, Kilik, Astaroth
B : Soph, X, Amy, Yoshi
C : Sieg?, NM, Cass, Mitsu, Taki, Yun, Lizard
D : Zas, Maxi, Rock, Talim, Tira?, Sieg?
E : Mina, Tira?

Keep in mind that the game is very rich and balanced. I am kinda sure that S and A character are up there, but I have some difficulty to classify B,C,D and E characters (especially the ones with the "?").

Remarks :
I admit there are characters I am not sure or where I may be biased since I play Setsuka :
- Amy : Setsu kills Amy for free. She is just can't keep up with the gameplay limitations Setsuka impose on her : she needs to forget about 6BB (just too much TC move with Setsuka), she fears to do a steppable move because Setsuka will hurt her BADLY while she can't really prevent Setsuka to step - risk vs reward is clearly in favor of Setsuka (even her anti step move can be stepped), damage wise she won't be able to keep up, she has difficulty to get in close range and she doesn't win range wise.... I play against a very good Amy on a regular basis, and the Amy player (BlackCat) just switchs to Sophitia when he is in a tournament because of me.
- Not sure about Siegfried.
- Not sure about Tira. I thought she had good potential but the health loss just kill her. When she faces a Mitsu or a Setsuka losing 40 life points to do a 80 damage combo is just too dangerous. The random changes are a pain too.

Cervantes may be S. Not sure but he really has some potential. Just waiting for a friend of mine to level up his Cervantes to get more informations.

Voldo's a beast (he has everything a character would want), Hilde's a monster (she isn't complete in every aspects of the game but the tools she has are broken). Sophi and X are better than I previously thought they were. Zas might be better than D class.
 
Something Unique :

Well, Setsuka vs Kilik isn't really that bad of a match up for Setsuka. On the contrary, I believe Setsuka has the edge in this match up.
But I am interested in your reasons you say Setsuka is at a disadvantage against Kilik.

My tier list :

S : Voldo, Hilde, Setsuka
A : Cervantes, Ivy, Kilik, Astaroth
B : Soph, X, Amy, Yoshi
C : Sieg?, NM, Cass, Mitsu, Taki, Yun, Lizard
D : Zas, Maxi, Rock, Talim, Tira?, Sieg?
E : Mina, Tira?

Well I wouldn't say it's a horrendous bad matchup or anything of that sort. What I will say is its somewhere along the lines of what X vs. Kilik is, which is like 55/45 in X's favor (Though in the Setsuka vs. Kilik matchup it could be a possible 60/40 in Kilik's favor)

To make things simple Kilik controls space in this matchup alot better than any other matchup persay. Setsuka can't really get on the inside in this matchup the way she can vs. other characters.

The few moves that she does have that can work the range game vs. other characters doesn't apply here either because Kilik can punish hard. (Example bA though the punishment damage is range dependent)
Also 33B can be stepped and punsihed hard as well with A+B - 66B, 66B leading to 80-Damage.

What Kilik does best is work at mid-far range, and because of it 1AAA is not applicable in this matchup which is her only good low. 2B+K and 11A are both duckable on reaction.

Also let's say you can work Setsuka's wave dashing ability to close space. Kilik can still box out creating the same situation again. Unlike X and Hilde where there stepping ability is godlike Setsuka's isn't and it's one less of a problem to worry about.

For every situation that Setsuka can step and punish a whiff with her B+K 61B series and get 86-Damage Kilik can do just the same with A+B leading to 80 Damage. So far in every video I have ever seen or know Kiliks that know how to play I can think of only two Kilik's out there who use the step A+B strat. Myself and Wing-Zero. I have yet to see any French players utilize that strat as well.

As far as the tier list goes I can only comment on S and A tier as the others are to much of an unfinished decision to decide.

I noticed your doesn't include Algol and guest characters so I will make another one doing the same thing.

S-Tier:

Setsuka (Which could possibly be 1 or two spots lower but she's definitely in S tier)
Kilik
Hilde (Both Yoda and Vader is ironically horrible matchups for her and that affected my previous placing)

A-Tier:

Amy
Ivy
Voldo

Personally in regards to Voldo i'm not seeing what places him in S-tier like everyone else. Though I have to admit it's gay that you can't see his strings for the most part and have to guess 24/7.
 
tl;dr all of the thread, but it seems like the majority of you are ignorant to the superiority of Yoshimitsu!
That is BLASPHEMY and he will come for you!...after he's punched you in the nuts! muahahahhahahaha...ha?

EDIT: simplified "GIB YOSHIMITSU TOP TIER NAO!!!"
 
Since everybody classified there tier .I gonna list mine :)))



S:Amy Hilde Kilik Sop Voldo
A: Cass Ivy Yoshi
B: As Lizard Mitsu Nm Rap Sieg Taki X
C: Maxi Rock Talim Tira Yun Zas
D: Mina

still not sure yet
A~S :Setsuka
B~A : Cervy


As people said,SC4 is pretty balance this time for the most part , lots of characters can be competitve and place in tournament. Not like previous one the winner spots always took out by certain chars.
Well...but still pathetic to see those chars in C~D tiers, specailly Mina -_____- she does has no tools except her soul gauge damage are good , however ,cuz she lack of attack potential..SGD being useless...
 
Actually, you better not underestimate Setsuka's step (just like in SC3, step is a huge part of my gameplay).
I'll wait to play a better Kilik to add more comments since I thought Setsuka had the edge especially because of her rewarding step, and Kilk has difficulty to prevent her from stepping at mid range.


Just few remarks :
1AAA isn't really needed.
WS B shouldn't be abused against Setsuka.
Wavedash to get in close range ? That's not serious. Unless you want to get CHed don't use that.
Asura is very risky against Setsuka.
11A isn't that used as a low in itself but more as an super TC tool (sometimes it can go under WS B) and an anti step tool.
 
Actually, you better not underestimate Setsuka's step (just like in SC3, step is a huge part of my gameplay).
I'll wait to play a better Kilik to add more comments since I thought Setsuka had the edge especially because of her rewarding step, and Kilk has difficulty to prevent her from stepping at mid range.


Just few remarks :
1AAA isn't really needed.
WS B shouldn't be abused against Setsuka.
Wavedash to get in close range ? That's not serious. Unless you want to get CHed don't use that.
Asura is very risky against Setsuka.
11A isn't that used as a low in itself but more as an super TC tool (sometimes it can go under WS B) and an anti step tool.

I don't underestimate anyone's stepping ability (lol). However that doesn't change the fact that it's not as serious of a problem compared to Hilde and X who can take away alot of Kilik's best tools because of it.

1AAA may not be the essential defining facter but it helps to have a good low that does some good damage. Without it a character because somewhat less of a problem (Ex. Tekken 5DR Steve or anygame for that matter).

WS B shouldn't be abused at all against anyone since it's linear but when used with discretion and delay you would be suprised how often people can't step it (mainly because of delay) and thats speaking truth as I do it all the time vs. high level players.

Wavedash meaning not wave dash directly in face but to close space and it's actually an underrated Setsuka tool. Wavedash i a fundamental tool in fighting games to make people hesitate.

Asura is useful when it's used and again I must stress this. You can ask anybody who has played me offline or online how accurate my timing is with it and at 80-Damage (JF version) it hurts. In fact I will show you at the next upcoming NJ tourney when it comes up when vids are captured. Against all types of people especially KDZ's Hilde.

As far as 11A totally understandable.



Other notes:

Here is how good Kilik's A+B really is.

Those same vids that were posted of Setsuka vs. Zasalamel in this thread. There were times where the setsuka ducked his A in the 6BA string and punished with 3aB for 30-35 Damage depending on the JF.

What you will find most Kilik's do in that situation besides me is punish with WS B into 54-Damage with oki.

In my case I do that as well as A+B which can be done instead by ducking but not the full animation more like a fuzzy guard and punish with A+B, 66B, 66B for 80-Damage. I know for a fact no one else in this community knows about it in that respect besides me though maybe Wing-Zero.

So what do you have Setsuka 30-35 Damage at best vs. Kilik at 80-Damage at best just off the strength of a duck.

Here goes a brief reason why Kilik is that dam good.

i20-Frames: A+B - Applicable in these situations. Post GI - Step Punish - Duck replacement for WS B. Leads to 80-Damage. In the case of Cervy iGDR on block is at least 100-Damage or more on back turned. Also here goes another setup but dependent on certain characters. The same choices but near edge or wall will lead to A+B-3BB-etc. or A+B-46B-etc. allowing for ringout or more damage.

i26-Frames: Asura (JF) - Applicable in these situations. Counters all mids (except those without weapons), tech jumps lows (which no one really uses but in actuality it's just as good as the counter) I find myself using the tech jump application in alot of situations now. Leads to 80-Damage all across the board. However the real beauty of this move comes in handy because it makes your opponent second guess what they do giving Kilik more room to space. It's golden vs. Hilde for example because I can see Hilde's charges and react to them offline without guessing because the blue cue sets it off.

Combine those two together when you got a player with insane reflexes like me against Hilde and you have a problem. She loses 80-Damage off A+B for whiffing a B-charge and 80-Damage for getting countered off reaction on her charges whether it be A or B charges. Also combine that with the fact that Kilik has an 80-Damage A+G FOTD throw and most people like u stated above will escape most of the time against Hilde. In return taking away her C3A trying to escape it which is her best move or eating the damage with possible ringout.

i17-Frames: FOTD A+G - Self Explanatory but also more deadly Post GI situations depending on distance from ringout because of mixup FOTD B+G which ring out's left. So as a result whether it be Post GI throw setups or not being a possible ringout from both directions is a bitch.

WSB
2A
FC 3B
4B
66A
4A

all box out extremely well (obviously 2A is for the steppers and 4A and 66A for zoning). What you have here is a solid wall that all rip apart the SG rather quickly with the exception of 66A and set's u up for more post block situations to eat the SG even more (Ex. 4A)

The he has kB and 1/3 B+K for poking lows (while linear) give plus two frames and the other at +0 frames respectively.

Those are just examples of how good Kilik is. What most people don't realize is when you play a Kilik that knows how to utilize his tools to box out well there is a real problem and before u know it SG is gone.

In fact if the Kilik player wants to be risky a mixup between 4KB and 4K*B wrecks the soul gauge for minimum punsihment at -14-Frames. 4K*B only take 7.? times to crush.
 
Umbrella isn't nearly Setsuka's most damaging FC punish. FC 3A+B, 2363B, 2143B:B, A+K B, JF Umbrella is ~85 damage, over 100 if they tech.

Plus, isn't A+B high? If it is, it's value as a step punish is diminished, as quite a number of the good moves in this game end in crouch.

Edit:

Also in the Kilik vs Setsuka match up, non-GB Asura (2 or 3 hits) is punished by setsuka B+K, GB Asura is free throw, so I'd say the trade off there is pretty even between Asura vs Silver Moon.

Setsuka's 214B shuts down WS B
 
I was using it as an example per the situation vs. Zasalamel.

A+B is high and it does not matter as some moves recover from crouch right into it because of negative recovery frames. Also the very few moves that do end in crouch just use 4A+B.

Example: Sophitia 4B+K A - Step right after 4B+K and use 4A+B because she's in crouch. Even better than that Asura Tech jump the A instead of blocking it. Just an example or you can even step right after B+K and then Asura and it will still catch her during the recovery frames.

The above is just an example related to your post.

If u noticed I did not talk about Asura in a block fashion because that's not how u use it. You use it with discretion when u know it will work as stated above with the Sophie situation as an example.

To add to that if you did wait and block all 3 hits Asura GB version it only takes six to SC and if your only answer is a throw that's still 50/50.

Hilde once again can be used as an example if the opponent chose to block all three hits. Because at -17 she can't do any major damage outside of 20-25 Damage. Throw would be the only option. In the end it's all a moot point anyway because in high level play you don't gamble like that and better players would cut it off by GI'ing the second hit.

As far as 214B cutting off WSB it's all about spacing. Spacing is key as proper spacing can make that whiff with WSB connecting.

You have to play the range with Kilik. It's what he's good at.
 
Don't worry, I know very well of Kilik's stregth... He is a very good character which I am not underestimating.

FC 3A+B 33B 214~3B:B A+K B umbrella isn't consistent alas. FC 3A+B 214B A+K B umbrella is consistent for 75 dmg. Works wonder against a blocked A+B from Kilik btw.

Setsuka just does fine against Kilik long range wise (Kilik is better but not THAT better).
bA is a very good tool, providing you know how to use bA max range, Kilik won't be able to punish it and will be punished by 75 dmg if he tries.
6A / 6AA is an underrated tool, it has great range, anti step, Asura bait, create spacing and isn't that much punishable.
33B / 66A are very good tool like always. Of course you can step 33B, the same way you can step 4B or A+B.

At mid range Setsuka dominates Kilik, most of her tools will hit, she can create spacing just fine and Kilik anti step tools aren't that dangerous at that range (as an exemple, the first hit of Kilik's 6AA can be stepped easily, and ag:B on reaction will take care of the second).
And providing you fought a decent Setsuka you'll know that she can gets at mid range really easily (exemple : whiffed 6A, opponents won't attack because of the fear of the second A - combo 65 dmg if CH - into dash or guard).

At close range, the advantage is slightly for Setsuka, but she won't get in close range that much so it's ok.

Asura isn't that much of a problem playing Setsuka believe me. It's not like Setsuka had not spammable kicks moves (especially 3K), between what I step, what I guard (and punish with consistent 70 dmg), and what I 3K... asura is just too risky (not talking about delay moves which hit asura too).
You can use it of course, but it will be risky.

A+K B is a good move against Kilik btw. Not that punishable either.

WS B at a disadvantage against Setsuka is really dangerous. Her own WS B has more range, and Kilik's WSB is linear so risky since you'll be using it at mid/close range where her step is the most dangerous.

Well... speaking of the strengh and weaknesses of our character isn't that usefull so let's stop it at that. maybe one of these days we'll change our mind, but I am waiting to play a better Kilik than the one I play for now to add further comments.
 
I claim Cedric can GI Hilde charges on Reaction.
And Unique: -17 means free throw attempt. That's more than 25 damage. Especially Back to wall with command throw.
 
Since everybody classified there tier .I gonna list mine :)))

S:Amy Hilde Kilik Sop Voldo
A: Cass Ivy Yoshi
B: As Lizard Mitsu Nm Rap Sieg Taki X
C: Maxi Rock Talim Tira Yun Zas
D: Mina

still not sure yet
A~S :Setsuka
B~A : Cervy

Good sir Fiendchi, move X up to A and give Hilde & Voldo a tier of their own (S+, not to much better than S), and you're spot on IMO.

Sophie is so solid. Can't understand how people can put her mid or below.

She's reasonable fast, damaging combos (44B, 66B, CH 66B+K, A, B and more), overall very safe, great step, good throws (especially left throw), arguable the best punisher in the game, deceptive low that's +frames on hit and safe, great Auto-GI, good RO, 4B (puts opponent in CH, like -3 or something on block. Awesome). When played safe, she's a real threat, moreso than Cass.

Her main weakness would probably be that she lacks a solid, fast combo. 44B is the closest she has, but the it's not to safe nor to fast. But then, she also has 66B and CH44A, which both does almost 90 damage and is very safe.

I also think that Kilik MIGHT move down to A. I think he has some matchups that's hard for him, like Voldo with good range, speed, great kicks (against Asura Dance) and teriffic punisher.
 
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