1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Maxou]

Can't believe some people still argue if Hilde is really top tier. Not only is the doom combo broken but the character in itself is very strong with blockstuns, good damage, good throws (most of the time people don't duck against her since there is fear of the doom combo), good pokes and good defensive moves.

It is simple, even if the Hilde player can't provoke the mistake he needs to do the doom combo, it doesn't assure the opponent to win. The character in itself is still VERY strong.
Besides there is no way (players being human) you can't make a single mistake against Hilde, in a 3 round match, you're assured to do one at the very minimum .

There is no real method to win against her, even if you comes up with "plans" against her, let's say the Hilde player adapts to one of them and you're screwed. The real strategy is to stay really really solid and hope the mistakes you'll make (because you'll make mistakes) won't cost you the match.

She really reminds me of PAL SC3 Xiang, actually. Beatable, but really annoying to play against.

 

[thugish_pond]

Who is top then maxou? You said you dont think kilik, amy, or hilde are top. So I want to know who you think are better than those 3.

 

[Paneross]

Dan from SF is in a tier of his own

 

[Tiamat]

Well with Guilty Gear is different from Soul Calibur Hilde as in guilty gear you can actually avoid and react to those situations even when in the combo.

However after hearing about the japs which I did not know about in regards to this game and I don't know if other regions follow this rule as well then I guess their is no argument.

I will just simply main her as a serious second and use her when I need to at future tournaments.

you can't get out of a combo unless you have a burst, and a baited burst is often punishable by death. some combos are burst safe as well (meaning the player doing the combo does not even need to bait the burst, the game/character/combo does it for him). however, infinites and deathcombos in guilty gear do not happen much in match play

on the other hand, japanese do not even ban infinites in Hokuto no Ken, and those are CERTAINLY commonplace in high level play. there is no burst of any kind in that game I might add.

I'm basically saying if you want to follow how the Japanese deal with things like this, absolutely nothing Hilde has would be banned. Whether you think we should follow the Japanese in such matters is up to your own judgment.

 

[Maxou]

A

Who is top then maxou? You said you dont think kilik, amy, or hilde are top. So I want to know who you think are better than those 3.

There may be a misunderstanding, or an english error from me, perhaps a bad translation of my part.
I never said Hilde wasn't top. She is IMO.

The 3 top tier for me are Setsuka / Voldo / Hilde (perhaps Algol is top tier, but I don't know him since in France he is banned). They are the 3 character which have the tools to deal / adapt the fastest to any other characters. They can really limit the opponent gameplay.
They are really complete, they have everything a character could whish for, I can't really find a single drawback in those characters, but I can find drawbacks in Amy and Kilik.
Besides, those character have very good match up against the entire roster (I don't think they have a single negative match up, I may be wrong but with my personal knowledge of the game, I find it that way).

 

[KingAce]

A

There may be a misunderstanding, or an english error from me, perhaps a bad translation of my part.
I never said Hilde wasn't top. She is IMO.

The 3 top tier for me are Setsuka / Voldo / Hilde (perhaps Algol is top tier, but I don't know him since in France he is banned). They are the 3 character which have the tools to deal / adapt the fastest to any other characters. They can really limit the opponent gameplay.
They are really complete, they have everything a character could whish for, I can't really find a single drawback in those characters, but I can find drawbacks in Amy and Kilik.
Besides, those character have very good match up against the entire roster (I don't think they have a single negative match up, I may be wrong but with my personal knowledge of the game, I find it that way).

You're entitled to that opinion. But I think Kilik is definitely better than setsuka.

 

[Maxou]

As I said, it's only based on my personal knowledge of the game, perhaps I'll change my mind if I find / encounter something that I didn't know about Kilik.
I think Setsuka is better than Kilik for various reasons :
- really good match up against the entire roster (IMO she has no negative match up) including the characters Kilik is said to suffer against.
- she has the tool to keep up really good against Hilde : A+K A, really good poke kick moves, good range, good throws, fast attacks... A+K A and her insane kicks being the most important. Setsuka can pretend to be problematic for Hilde, and while IMO it is not enough to make Setsuka vs Hilde a positive match up for Setsuka, it is enough to make it a 50-50 which is kinda rare for Hilde IMO.
- she's more complete than him (in a general way). Characters who pose problem to Kilik won't pose problem to Setsuka.
- she's (believe me or not) harder to be stepped than him.

Why do you think Kilik is better?

 

[Ceirnian]

Maxou, I think the problem is that the North America doesn't have a tournament winning Setsuka player who shows mastery over the character enough so that we understand how good she really is. However from what it sounds like, France does. There are no videos up of your Setsuka player so most people are skeptics about her tier placement.

That said, I believe that Setsuka is better than Kilik. However I don't have hard evidence to back up that claim, this is just going off my gut feeling from understanding her moveset with a sprinkle of trusting french players judgement on Setsuka.

 

[KingAce]

As I said, it's only based on my personal knowledge of the game, perhaps I'll change my mind if I find / encounter something that I didn't know about Kilik.
I think Setsuka is better than Kilik for various reasons :
- really good match up against the entire roster (IMO she has no negative match up) including the characters Kilik is said to suffer against.
- she has the tool to keep up really good against Hilde : A+K A, really good poke kick moves, good range, good throws, fast attacks... A+K A and her insane kicks being the most important. Setsuka can pretend to be problematic for Hilde, and while IMO it is not enough to make Setsuka vs Hilde a positive match up for Setsuka, it is enough to make it a 50-50 which is kinda rare for Hilde IMO.
- she's more complete than him (in a general way). Characters who pose problem to Kilik won't pose problem to Setsuka.
- she's (believe me or not) harder to be stepped than him.

Why do you think Kilik is better?

It's definitely possible, but then again the only bad match-up I feel kilik might have is Astaroth and Hilde, and Astaroth could be 50/50. Also interms of Hilde vs Kilik, that's a discussion worth reviewing right there.
IMO the only 50/50 match-up Hilde has is in between Algol and Astaroth. Algol should be obvious...Astaroth because of that weird hitbox issue with hilde's combos.
More or less my opinion on Hilde's match-ups is dependant on how easily you can get rung out.

Basically here North America, we lack enough information about Setsuka to judge fairly. And we don't take people's words for anything...we have to see for ourselves to draw our own conclusions.

 

[Stryker]

Maxou, I think the problem is that the North America doesn't have a tournament winning Setsuka player who shows mastery over the character enough so that we understand how good she really is. However from what it sounds like, France does. There are no videos up of your Setsuka player so most people are skeptics about her tier placement.

In Dominican Republic there awesome Setsuka players who can sweep away 86dmg just by evading some attack... even on punish she can do it B+K combo for nothing. The problem about her is that no one can win using just 3-5 moves or doing the same repetitive combo... just to master the JF you have to be clever first to find the right timing to do it and be consistent to use those weapons in a real match.

That said, I believe that Setsuka is better than Kilik. However I don't have hard evidence to back up that claim, this is just going off my gut feeling from understanding her moveset with a sprinkle of trusting french players judgement on Setsuka.

Agree but I'm not believing... I'm sure Setsuka is far better than Kilik. Just watch some dominican videos starting from these one: and say WTF while watching the other Nando matches...

-Stryker-

 

[Maxou]

Good vids. Didn't saw them posted here, I would have commented them for sure ... where's the thread?

I am not amazed at all by how much Omega got hit by 1AAA, the move is really harder to block on reaction than it seems. Besides, it has great range, it is full anti step, and taking in account Setsuka's powerful mids, you really don't want to duck randomly.
People say Setsuka has shitty lows... that's wrong.

It's definitely possible, but then again the only bad match-up I feel kilik might have is Astaroth and Hilde, and Astaroth could be 50/50. Also interms of Hilde vs Kilik, that's a discussion worth reviewing right there.
IMO the only 50/50 match-up Hilde has is in between Algol and Astaroth. Algol should be obvious...Astaroth because of that weird hitbox issue with hilde's combos.

Well that's weird, us french community have a completly different vision of the character since our match up charts seems to show Kilik has negative matches up and more than one. The kilik match up were mostly posted by Hayate and some other great french Kilik players, so either we know something you don't, or you know something we don't.
A discussion could be intersting between both of the point of view.

Watching some american videos, I get the feeling (IMO) that you people fear Kilik too much, there is some lack of knowledge on how to play against him. Each time I see a Nh 2K into WS B I am like "omg how could he get hit by that....", there isn't enough stepping against Kilik, there is no GI / autoGI on the second hit of Asura, natural use of stances shouldn't be able to hit like that, FOTD should be the main focus breaking throws... well I may be very wrong, and it is perhaps I occult some part of you guys Kilik's gameplay and would be beaten like a pulp against the Kilik in videos, but you get my point. That's just the impression I get.

 

[wing_zero]

Setsuka is good, but definitely not better than Kilik; She has to take too many risks imo.

 

[Plume]

In Dominican Republic there awesome Setsuka players who can sweep away 86dmg just by evading some attack...

So can I.
Damn, I must be awesome, huh?

And that Setsuka could have done a little better...

After saying these two things, I can't really tell you my usual speech about Setsuka not being that good, I suppose. Since punishing whiffs with B+K isn't that difficult...
Unless I decide to be a sheep and say "but Zasalamel is Rock tier."

 

[Maxou]

Setsuka is good, but definitely not better than Kilik; She has to take too many risks imo.

Now I am really curious about the kind of risks you're talking about ?

 

[Vlaster]

Good vids. Didn't saw them posted here, I would have commented them for sure ... where's the thread?

I am not amazed at all by how much Omega got hit by 1AAA, the move is really harder to block on reaction than it seems. Besides, it has great range, it is full anti step, and taking in account Setsuka's powerful mids, you really don't want to duck randomly.
People say Setsuka has shitty lows... that's wrong.



Well that's weird, us french community have a completly different vision of the character since our match up charts seems to show Kilik has negative matches up and more than one. The kilik match up were mostly posted by Hayate and some other great french Kilik players, so either we know something you don't, or you know something we don't.
A discussion could be intersting between both of the point of view.

Watching some american videos, I get the feeling (IMO) that you people fear Kilik too much, there is some lack of knowledge on how to play against him. Each time I see a Nh 2K into WS B I am like "omg how could he get hit by that....", there isn't enough stepping against Kilik, there is no GI / autoGI on the second hit of Asura, natural use of stances shouldn't be able to hit like that, FOTD should be the main focus breaking throws... well I may be very wrong, and it is perhaps I occult some part of you guys Kilik's gameplay and would be beaten like a pulp against the Kilik in videos, but you get my point. That's just the impression I get.

i totally agree this post.

 

[Something-Unique]

you can't get out of a combo unless you have a burst, and a baited burst is often punishable by death. some combos are burst safe as well (meaning the player doing the combo does not even need to bait the burst, the game/character/combo does it for him). however, infinites and deathcombos in guilty gear do not happen much in match play

on the other hand, japanese do not even ban infinites in Hokuto no Ken, and those are CERTAINLY commonplace in high level play. there is no burst of any kind in that game I might add.

I'm basically saying if you want to follow how the Japanese deal with things like this, absolutely nothing Hilde has would be banned. Whether you think we should follow the Japanese in such matters is up to your own judgment.

Yeah I know that about Guilty gear.

As far as the possibility of Hilde breaching grounds for ban I take that back after you informing me about the japs.

I agree with you because I personally use the japs and koreans as the best of the best in almost every fighting game. So if they can compete and handle such things I don't see why we can't.

It's definitely possible, but then again the only bad match-up I feel kilik might have is Astaroth and Hilde, and Astaroth could be 50/50. Also interms of Hilde vs Kilik, that's a discussion worth reviewing right there.

Astaroth and Hilde are not bad matchups for Kilik. Astaroth who was previously believed to be a bad matchup for Kilik has been refuted. (Me, Wing-Zero, and Hayate agree on that)

Kilik only has one bad matchup and a possible second that is neglible. Ivy I believe is a bad matchup and a horrible one for Kilik as the return for everything is greater for everything in that matchup. Although Hayate
currently disagrees with me and its under review sort of by wing-zero. Xiangua is the other one at a possible slight advantage that isn't even worth mentioning.


In regards to Maxou:

I have to agree with u as I am one of the people who continously stated and stated earlier in this thread that Setsuka is top. In the end its all theory fighter with her though because in North America there isn't any reallly outstanding Setsuka's. But I can't help but shake the believe that if played correctly she can destroy a shitload of characters if played the way I can only dream.

Overall I think Setsuka is better than Kilik but ironically in a Setsuka vs. Kilik matchup I believe Kilik has an advantage over her which would be a bad matchup for her.

 

[KingAce]

Yeah I know that about Guilty gear.

As far as the possibility of Hilde breaching grounds for ban I take that back after you informing me about the japs.

I agree with you because I personally use the japs and koreans as the best of the best in almost every fighting game. So if they can compete and handle such things I don't see why we can't.



Astaroth and Hilde are not bad matchups for Kilik. Astaroth who was previously believed to be a bad matchup for Kilik has been refuted. (Me, Wing-Zero, and Hayate agree on that)

Kilik only has one bad matchup and a possible second that is neglible. Ivy I believe is a bad matchup and a horrible one for Kilik as the return for everything is greater for everything in that matchup. Although Hayate
currently disagrees with me and its under review sort of by wing-zero. Xiangua is the other one at a possible slight advantage that isn't even worth mentioning.


In regards to Maxou:

I have to agree with u as I am one of the people who continously stated and stated earlier in this thread that Setsuka is top. In the end its all theory fighter with her though because in North America there isn't any reallly outstanding Setsuka's. But I can't help but shake the believe that if played correctly she can destroy a shitload of characters if played the way I can only dream.

Overall I think Setsuka is better than Kilik but ironically in a Setsuka vs. Kilik matchup I believe Kilik has an advantage over her which would be a bad matchup for her.

You definitely did say she might be the best in the game...I remember you telling me that. And I still can't believe it...pick her up man. I want to test that shit.

 

[Something-Unique]

You definitely did say she might be the best in the game...I remember you telling me that. And I still can't believe it...pick her up man. I want to test that shit.

Yeah she's my third but I haven't really had the time to train with her like Kilik. Everything comes natural to me with Kilik and feels comfortable. I can even get the JF Asura about 80-100% at the moment from both sides.

Hilde on the other hand doesn't feel natural to me yet and I am still trying to shake that off.

Though I think I may scrap my development with Hilde in favor of Setsuka.

Back on topic:

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw out a revised top 5 just so people can quote me on it when it comes true.

1. Setsuka (Currently theory fighter)
2. Kilik (I can actually go into extreme detail with Kilik if people would like me to)
3. Amy (Underated with no noticeable bad matchups)
4. Algol (After testing at an NY session I see why he's top and didn't notice before because I happen to main Kilik who is unaffected by Algol so their was a little bias)
5. Hilde (She actually has a number of bad matchups and while her doom combos are broke they are not the be all end all)

Just putting it out there so people can quote me on it later.

 

[Papy_Danone]

4. Algol (After testing at an NY session I see why he's top and didn't notice before because I happen to main Kilik who is unaffected by Algol so their was a little bias)

Glad we finally convinced you, although this guy should be #1 imo. We'll study that deeper during another session on Friday, to which you're welcome to show up.

 

[Omega]

Good vids. Didn't saw them posted here, I would have commented them for sure ... where's the thread?

I am not amazed at all by how much Omega got hit by 1AAA, the move is really harder to block on reaction than it seems. Besides, it has great range, it is full anti step, and taking in account Setsuka's powerful mids, you really don't want to duck randomly.
People say Setsuka has shitty lows... that's wrong.



Well that's weird, us french community have a completly different vision of the character since our match up charts seems to show Kilik has negative matches up and more than one. The kilik match up were mostly posted by Hayate and some other great french Kilik players, so either we know something you don't, or you know something we don't.
A discussion could be intersting between both of the point of view.

Watching some american videos, I get the feeling (IMO) that you people fear Kilik too much, there is some lack of knowledge on how to play against him. Each time I see a Nh 2K into WS B I am like "omg how could he get hit by that....", there isn't enough stepping against Kilik, there is no GI / autoGI on the second hit of Asura, natural use of stances shouldn't be able to hit like that, FOTD should be the main focus breaking throws... well I may be very wrong, and it is perhaps I occult some part of you guys Kilik's gameplay and would be beaten like a pulp against the Kilik in videos, but you get my point. That's just the impression I get.

Well it seems that french and Dominican players have the same mentality, i totally agree with you, for me Hilde an Setsu are the top on this game.