Amy broken ?

GI charges on reaction ? If you start doing that, a clever opponent will just do a cancel, let you whiff your GI, and RING OUT ! Dina (best FR Hilde player IMHO) did that kind of stuff as soon as I started doing some GIs ... I stopped quickly ;)

I agree with you for rolling with right timing and stuff. People do it to me all the time !
BTW 66A+B is -12 not -13, so Kilik can't punish it.
 
As not to derail the thread in regards to Hilde I'm just gonna say this. People always reply with that comment with delaying said charge.

You missed the word reaction. I react to the blue. Its not premature educated guessing. Its reacting to the blue charge in itself meaning there is no canceling possiblity. Once u do it its done. Which is why over long stretches its hard to beat Hilde because that tremendous focus withers away over time hence the weaker I got against RTD over time in the GF's at GU.

Amy's 66A+B in close range is -13 because Kilik's i136AA punishes but at tip range does not. Like I said I practiced her inside out for 48 hours which is why i am super prepared for her.

When u block that on wakeup from oki she is directly in front of u.
 
S-U: I used to be a local champ for T5.0 and T5DR and could tell a lot about what I think is not right in your post, but I wont, since its a heavy offtopic for me and as much as it is not serious to compare SC3 and SC4 characters it is even more stupid to compare Tekken chars with SC chars, lets just not.

Taking your results vs Tuggish and mine results vs thuggish, consider for a second I actually am long past that "keep away" , "step~G" "staying down taking chip dmg" et cetera, and I actually know what I'm talking about. Sadly you cannot win the game with keep away, more importantly this keep away hardly gets you enough damage. You're implying you can simply never let your opponent force a mix up on you which is misintepretation on your part and inability of your opponents to use the momentum to their advantage. If you want to do theory understand that it is not possible to prevent opponent from forcing a mix up on you, all you can do is force them to take a risk at doing so and then compare the damage number outcome. It might be hard to calculate since Oki is not direct damage, but after a lot of experience you can realize how big the difference in damage is on her correct guesses, where even one correct guess usually forces you to lose half your life bar.

I've put this up a lot of times already, Ive lost count. You cannot stay down to escape her wakeups as 3B, 33B, 66A+B, 2B+K ground hit all reset the mixup
3B - catches all rolls
2B+K escapabe by backroll, or timed sideroll (depends on her spacing)
33B - roll left
66A+B roll right
ALL this depends if she times her atacks

now
if 3B wiffs you still have to wait, if you press G you'll get hit by 3BA
if 33B or 66A+B or even 2B+K wiffs you're in a threat of BT B+K

Also after any KD if you dont get up instantly 33B will always hit you. If she runs up her mix up is not interruptible. sometimes you can attempt to step after getting hit OTG (if 33B hits at tip for ex), which also involves risk of reseting mixup with 33B (you cant stepG) or if she just uses her throw you're down again. Her throw is not bad at all, b/c it KD's and it is not steppable like Raph's or NM's or other chars throws. See above on reward from KD.

What all that means. Since mix up is uninterruptible and getting hit otg doesnt weaken her mixup like you think.
if you get up you take ~40 damage + oki 1/2 of the time (mid/low)
if you stay down you take 14 dmg 2/3 of the time + oki. which basically averages to the same numbers.

On my part I can say I dont need enlightment on Amy and dealing with her. I've been dealing with her for a long time now and have been researching that "dealing with oki" stuff in a first month that I've played her a year ago. I also keep on coming back to practice mode for a long time now and I'm not just "48-hours-ready" but 4800 hrs and still not ready and I know there are solutions which, however , do not change the fact she is broken to the point you can lose rounds without an opportunity to do anything but guess guard mid/low correctly. And contrary to what you say I _know_ it is very easy for her to force a mix up on you, if used correctly.

I know my position is counterproductive, and I like what you say - "I can win, I can do this" and look for solutions, this is great you have the will and desire to answer the challenges instead of saying "this shit is broken why bother". But you can trust me on this, there are no global strategy against amy, if you want to win vs her you need mad adaptation, good reaction, a lot of knowledge and perfect execution. while your opponent doesnt need any of these. The only solution to her is being super solid and perfectly know how to deal the maximum damage of your correct guess and/or her incorrect guess/mistake. If youre like that, unlike vs hilde, you can win vs good Amy.
 
Don't misundertand I acknowledge u as the Amy killer since I heard about u from Maxx and Thugish post Evo. I'm inclined to know that u know ur Amy stuff more than most if not everyone.

The angle that i'm coming from is not that Amy cannot be kept out but she can be managed to keep her out of 2B+K range which directly changes the flow of the match and gives you room to negate her oki mixup resulting from knockdown. Its also in ur best interest to not even guess waking up when u do end up on the floor and take the hit and then recover because her 50/50 oki is to strong.

The reason I compare Amy & Hilde to Tekken is because u can and its not far fetched in the slightest. Hilde is the direct representation of what Tekken represents at its highest level. Spacing, stepping, and most importantly baiting whiffs into direct launching. She is like no other in this game and she thrives off of Tekken mechanics. When she first came out all the high level players could tell u thats what she equates to. Amy less similiar to tekken but her oki is the direct representation of characters like let's say T6BR Steve who if u even attempt to wake up on chances are that u are dead or placing yourself in a extremely worse case scenario than if u took the hit. The exact same rule applies to Amy and that is fact as getting up directly into 50/50's represent that very notion. Her 50/50's also represent someone like Lei or mishima mixups from T5DR and how dangerous they were or basically everyone in T6 as everyone had a dangerous low that did more than half life from 50/50 mixups. There is nothing different about Amy except that she doesn't even do remotely the same damage. Not even close.

Edit:

To go more in depth mixup implies mid & lows that are pratical. Amy has no mixup outside of 2B+K but because being just one step away eliminates that move she can be managed to maintain respectable keep out. By respectable keep out I mean that nothing is indefinite but applies to being feasible/practical. This alone gives u the room to execute what you need to against her but is not guaranteed to win u the match.

I would argue that the reason it even took me so long to manage Amy is because I had no PS3 to practice and learn what she has since February and within that time slot is where Thugish has beaten me with her almost to the point where there is no real competition outside of some of our matches in which I simply guessed more correctly enough for me to manage her mixup from 2B+K.

Post thorough investigation in regards to Amy I realized just how many flaws she has and how to manage her just from this one week alone. Since I don't want people to misinterpret info i'm not implying that I can beat Thugish indefinitely or the other way around but what I am saying is as a result of finally getting thorough practice from her I have finally beat him since NEC9 but back then his amy wasn't what it is today.

I have to disagree with u in general when it comes to Amy being anywhere near close to game breaking Hilde and i'm even gonna bet on the fact that results vs. her will be the same in the future and by that I mean a more than manageable matchup with no advantages in which Amy can phase people out like Hilde. Not even close but again thats imo.
 
Something-Unique said:
You missed the word reaction. I react to the blue. Its not premature educated guessing. Its reacting to the blue charge in itself meaning there is no canceling possiblity. Once u do it its done. Which is why over long stretches its hard to beat Hilde because that tremendous focus withers away over time hence the weaker I got against RTD over time in the GF's at GU.
Click to expand...

I didn't miss the word "reaction".
I never talked about delay, but about cancel.
This means start a move, and then cancel it with guard (K~G, A~G ...), creating a false stimulus, to which you react with GI, and then get punished for whiffed GI.

So you can actually see blue and react to it specifically fast enough. Considering that these moves usually come out in 21 frames, it's definitely possible, but damn hardcore ... ! Probably cancels and other things, just messing arround with your concentration, would put you slightly off focus after several minutes...

Anyway, thanks to all for your contributions, it's nice to have a debate about Amy and how to play her / counter her.
 
Not to sound ignorant but none of those parlor tricks work because again I am reacting to the charge. The color cue and nothing else. I don't get fumbled by fake outs for that exact reason. No one ever understands or believes me until they either see it for themselves or have it happen to them but trust me I can do it but I have to practice it in training to keep those reflexes sharp otherwise I react late. Though over time its impossible for me to keep that level of focus up so when I fight Hilde I like to end things as soon as possible.

To me this game is a cake walk in regards to GI'ing because I used to main DOA. In that game it was so much harder to GI because it was four different counters for different aspects of the game. In this game its just two which is nothing to me. Personally I don't think anyone in this game has better reaction than me except maybe Kura.

Side Info:

In general I have a rule in regards to Hilde as a competitor. If a dedicated Hilde player cannot beat his or her opponent on ring-out stages in a consistent manner then said Hilde is weak and in general is just riding the Hilde flames. Its more saddening if that Hilde is a dedicated user. If as a competitor u cannot beat Hilde on non ring out stages in a consistent manner there is a major problem in ur game and u cannot beat Hilde. That is how I see this matchup in general and the competitive level of said opponent.

In regards to Amy just out of curiosity do u think Amy is broken?
 
She might not be as broken as Hilde, maybe I went a little over the board in stating that, but still like I said they both are broken.

The angle that i'm coming from is not that Amy cannot be kept out but she can be managed to keep her out of 2B+K range which directly changes the flow of the match and gives you room to negate her oki mixup resulting from knockdown.
Click to expand...
Understand what I am refering is not absurd power of her basic mixup (see more below) but absurd reward off KD. It doesnt matter how she gets KD, off mixup or off well placed 33B for ex. When dealing with your spacing, or interrupts she still gets KD on you. and while you might get ~70 dmg off sucessful guess, she will get even more off wakeups.

Its also in ur best interest to not even guess waking up when u do end up on the floor and take the hit and then recover because her 50/50 oki is to strong.
Click to expand...
IT is so strong for numerous reasons.
- one part of the mixup is safe and any mixup with one safe part is favorable by default. This is already good as it gets.
- Your guess ratio is very low as you cannot utilize any techniques on wakeup but low or mid guard.
- Your possible damage output on wakeup is very low b/c of the above. (might vary on characters)
- each consecutive guess resets the mixup.

Your solution is to stay otg.
her otg mixup
- all parts are safe
- Your guess ratio is extremely low you will only guess less than 30% of the time, even with her atacks dealing less damage otg (14) than basic mixup it would still average to the same number.
- You will not get any damage off your correct guesses.
- each consecutive guess on her part resets the mixup.

once again you can stay otg and try to get less damage BUT this does not weaken her mixups/wakeups a little bit. you will recieve damage slower but you still will recieve about the same amount of damage and at the same time give up some free damage. with Cassandra for example it is stupid to stay otg , with chraracters who cant punish 2B+K with at least a KD move you'd better stay otg.
 
SU : I was also thinking about lows, throws and stuff that would slightly distract you from being completely focused on blue color. But if you say you can do that consistently while still actually being in a match and thinking about all the rest (mind game, lows, break throws, step, punish ...), good for you ^^

Thanks for your contribution Belial.
I still don't think that Amy is broken. More "very solid" : sure her mechanics are powerful, easy to apply and overall pretty cheap, but her average damage is comparatively low so it kind of balances it out from "broken" to "top tier".

Broken would also mean overpowering all other characters in an unfair way. Well sure, she's very solid, but I believe several other characters to be stronger (obvisously Hilde, but also Setsuka, Voldo, Kilik), and that she's on the same level as a few others (Cass, Ivy, Cerv, Asta, Yoshi)
 
I'm pretty sure something unique GI's Hilde's charges with a combination of reaction and anticipation. If a Hilde player steps back or pauses for a second before attacking, then he would look to GI, but if she does it along with a string of attacks, he probably doesn't GI on reaction because it takes a bit away from the anticipation aspect. Hilde could probably run up and grab you or something when you start anticipating the charges. Anyways, back to Amy.
I've only seen yall talk about Amy's offensive mixup game, but that's not the only reason she's too good of a character. Her move recovery and overall speed is too good, so she can attack at disadvantage far better than anyone in the game. Her move evasion combined with her speed make her too good and potentially very unpredictable. Amy can technically punish you for about anything you do even after she's already finished a string of attacks (with moves like 4A, 2A+B, 8A+B, B+K, A+B, 44B) and she can mix that up with continuing to attack at disadvantage. This would all be fine since alot of her evading stuff is unsafe, but since you have to respect her evasion and attack recovery/speed, her mixups which are already superb, become alot better. SC3 didn't have any characters you could not turtle. Hwang in sc3 takes risk in doing 3AA, as it's pretty damn unsafe (I fucking hate Hwang anyways). SC3 Mitsu's 2K was better than in SC4, but it feels easier to block in SC3 and isn't that great by itself in SC4. SC4 Amy is damn near impossible to effectively turtle if the Amy really knows what they're doing.
 
"Her move recovery and overall speed is too good, so she can attack at disadvantage far better than anyone in the game."

Forgetting Taki??? ~lol
 
Sure, Taki is better at interrupting.
But Amy is damn stronger.

Belial came to France for a few days, so I was able to play vs his different characters (Mitsu, Raph, Amy ...)
His Amy is just so simple yet completely insane. I should have filmed, it was bad ass.

Actually I think I'm going to switch characters for a bit, maybe Sophitia or Xianghua, and only play Amy in competitive settings, because playing such an aggressive and cheap character doesn't encourage to develop other skills such as step/whiff punish, defense, spacing, GI, ...
 
So, your changed your mind, then? Yeah, pity~

An Amy player who doesn't apply step, wise GIs, and maintain a good defense will hardly be effective. Sure, you don't even need spam i6:B to be a threat, just applying her insane pressure and oki is more than enough.
 
I have no problem to do 6:6B consistently. It's more that since Amy has such simple mechanics to win (invisible mid/low), it makes you forget how to do more advanced stuff required with the other characters.

I had a conversation with Belial about when he played tekken. His character Brian was completely broken in 5.0, because of a blockstun big damage launcher. Then in T5 DR, this was corrected, so he had to find other ways to win with Brian. When he tried T 5.0 again he realized how completely broken the character was and utterly destroyed everyone because he had not only that launcher but also all the other tools.

French player Dina also gave me similar advice : just use Siegfried and get to the point where I can win with only 3B / throws. Then just adding 1K would feel like being god tier ^^

When I go back to using my real character Amy with all this extra skill, this is going to be very fun ^^
 
Well, yes Amy is pretty damn stupid.
Russian Amy players had to improve b/c i was there. For you Tresto it might not be necessary to change character also when you play players like Keev, who might kick your ass badly enough to look for solutions. Ultimately characters like Amy might be slowing you down, but in fact what you want is an open-minded aproach to the game, what I said to you before. In russian we call this "to see the forest behind the trees". To improve you have not just play a lot but think a lot and give your ideas a solid reasoning. Amy has a very straighforward way, yes, but it is not necesarily means you must always think to apply 50/50, overall her standing mixup is strong but not deadly, her wake up is deadly. So any KD would count. But you have to figure for yourself at which times it is your lack of skill that you cannot penetrate opponent defence and apply 50/50 or if it is your real lack of tools at the time/range/set up. It is usually very easy to give up something strong b/c opponent make you think its weak, but there is another good advice for that - you should think of not how to prevent something, but how to achieve something (damage). If you have that attitude you will be fine, I guess! Do not blindly follow my advice that is also a part of being open minded, if you want to be the best you need your own way. And imitation only gets you as far as original.
 
Lots of players kick my ass, not only Keev. But not all players are that good and I don't play with him that often either ;)

Actually my own experience shows that changing characters can be very enlightening.

First story : 2-3 months ago, I play vs a Kilik player.
I play Amy, he kicks my ass, 11-2. I switch to Voldo, and come back to 12-7. Go back to Amy, and win 3-4 matches in a row.

Second story : last saturday, I play vs an Ivy player
We do a challenge FT5 Amy vs Ivy, I loose 5-1. A Cass player who was also there does a challenge Cass vs Ivy, Ivy wins 5-0. I notice he spaces Cass in a very harsh way. I try Cass, I manage to win one match out of 10. I had to use lots of hard stuff such as GI, step/dash/guard (and wait again), more patience... Because Cass has no long range fast move (Amy has 33B). CL BB even blocked was infinite because Cass has nothing fast enough to hit back without eating another BB in CH.
I pick Amy again. I win several matches in a row, 4 or 5.

This is just by switching characters for 20 minutes.
So playing a mid/low tier character that has to setup damage for several weeks/months would probably be a very empowering experience.
 
A lot from the (justified) Amy hate comes exactly from that: her simple stuff is way too good. Other characters have to work harder to win. Amy doesn't have any really bad matchups too.

I main her since SCIV's launch - while I think the character is kind of fun to play as, I can't stand watch most
of Amy matches lol - they're not interesting at all. Seems that everyone plays the same way - which isn't wrong - but just states that her bnb is that effective.
 
In some ways I agree with you Elfreide. Sometimes watching some Amy matches are boring, but playing in them is another story, especially if both Amy players are quite good. It's all mind games with Mix-ups there. What I notice though, aside from her being very fast and having good simple attacks, it seems she's one of the only characters where I see players (who can really play her) use at least half if not most of her moveset and are mostly safe against steps and counters (although that doesn't mean they're immune to it). Unless I've seen only the good Amy players around, I almost never see Amy players who're caught up in spamming to win.


But here's an interesting question to pose to everyone, in a match-up against another Amy player, which Amy would you rather have? The regular amy, shazerade, or a CAS amy (who's got the longest reach, but also tallest height)? I for one seem to prefer using the regular Amy over other options, but then again that's what sometimes gets me in trouble.
 
nightstar: what you posted is completely wrong.
you should play with thugish pond, he's in chicago too. maybe competetive gaming will spare you of your illusions.
 
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
"Her move recovery and overall speed is too good, so she can attack at disadvantage far better than anyone in the game."

Forgetting Taki??? ~lol
Click to expand...
u shoulda quoted more of what I said. Taki is good at intercepts, but when Taki is done attacking, she's done attacking, she can't keep attacking the way Amy does and can't auto-GI like Amy does (Taki 4B isn't that good). Against Taki, you can always see her potential openings and block her shit when she's trying to counter you. Against Amy you can see her potential openings, but then you have to guess if she's goin mid/low, or whatever. Amy can 1A your ass and it'll hit if you're standing there as oposed to Taki just doin AB or somethin like that, or 66A which is unsafe. Basically what I'm sayin is that Taki's attacks at disadvantage are far more predictable and defendable and she can't punish you for attempting to beat out her attempts to attack at disadvantage (Taki's not nearly as good at evading or auto-GI).
 
Nightstar_Ace said:
In some ways I agree with you Elfreide. Sometimes watching some Amy matches are boring, but playing in them is another story, especially if both Amy players are quite good. It's all mind games with Mix-ups there. What I notice though, aside from her being very fast and having good simple attacks, it seems she's one of the only characters where I see players (who can really play her) use at least half if not most of her moveset and are mostly safe against steps and counters (although that doesn't mean they're immune to it). Unless I've seen only the good Amy players around, I almost never see Amy players who're caught up in spamming to win.


But here's an interesting question to pose to everyone, in a match-up against another Amy player, which Amy would you rather have? The regular amy, shazerade, or a CAS amy (who's got the longest reach, but also tallest height)? I for one seem to prefer using the regular Amy over other options, but then again that's what sometimes gets me in trouble.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Amy is my favorite character of SCIV and I can't play everyone else with the same degree of fun I have with her. The majority of high-level Amy players don't stray off her bnb (33B-66B+K-236K.K , i6:B-i6:B.A, etc) - which isn't wrong or anything. They're playing to win.

However, like you said, her movelist is pretty decent overall, and some moves are really effective in certain situations. Broken Thrust (22/88.B) is awesome if used against some verticals mid-range. On other hand, she do have a crappy repertoire of moves in her sleeve. B+K.A, anyone? Or Rising A (hits high, petty damage and frames).

Regarding your question, I play both Amy and Scheherazade (in my country, the Bonus Characters never went banned lol - only CaS). So, while you guys in the launch of game were banning Vader, Starkiller and everyone else, I was enjoying the annoying-cocky-elf and her advantages - while none are gamebreaking, they're still useful nonetheless.

She has more range, so moves like FC3B, A+K.B, 236.Bs reach a little farther than Amy's. 66A+B mid-to-close range is unpunishable against some characters who could punish Amy in the same conditions. Her hitbox is slightly different, but most of moves that hit/whiff Amy also hit/whiff Scheherazade
in the same way. It's more comparable to a Christie/Eddy scenario in Tekken than anything worth a ban.

CaS, on other hand, are pretty stupid. Their range is greatly enhanced. Their hitbox are also drastically different. 66A+B and 33B can be spammed freely without risk at all (and 33B is kinda safe with Amy, to start). They're pretty much stupid, and people who use CaS Amy are all scrubs, so we won't miss anything here.

I use Scheherazade most of time - not only for the minor advantages, but I really like her character too. Sue me.
 
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