Anti-character and match ups

Anti-Ivy?

ugh...Good to know I'm not the only one having problems with this matchup.

I dont know the stance but 214 (the super evasive sidestepping move that avoids damn near everything) is super unsafe. Raph gets a 66/236B if he blocks it

Thats all I got... >.<
 
Anti-Ivy?

214B is a "thingy" you refer to. It's a simple solution to many moves not only raphs' prep stance. Just dont go into prep, the move itself is pretty unsafe on block, so 236B will punish them for in unless they step in SE. if they step ... uh. do something else. Anyway its not too hard to punish her for doing this move.
Her basic step speed might be a problem, you may have to utilize WS A and throws a bit more than usual.
And watch out for her block stun (WP 33B i think) into shoulder (SE K), duck SE unblockable on reaction or even 4B it.
Overall 4B might be pretty useful in this match since its a good way to punish her throws and some high moves if you can sneak it in.
her 8A+B,A third hit is GI'able so do not hesitate to do it.
and SW 2A+K is certainly a headache when you cant even punish it properly.

Actually its not Ivy its raph being super weak.
If any advantages - Ivy cant punish well, so you can get away with more than a few unsafes.
 
Anti-Ivy?

That's the key problem though Belial...if they DON'T GO INTO SE...it's unsafe.

Have you played alot of Ivy's? They almost ALWAYS go into SE from 234(B)...I haven't tested if it's 6BB punishable....but this SINGLE IVY MOVE is really messing my game up.
 
Anti-Ivy?

I've had Ivy's that throw out 214~SE BBB (which i block) and then they throw out a 2nd 214, which evades any highs or verticals I use to apply pressure/counter attack ...which happens to be the only moves I know to toss out. I guess that one move makes it seem like you shouldn't retaliate (frame-wise) with a move, since it seems that some of the Ivy's are baiting you (but it definately seems they mindlessly throw it out because 214B is so evasive).
It's just uncomfortable for raph, in his best spacing-range (3B range) is where Ivy's 214B happens to be very strong.

One point belial brought up about 4B against the SE unblockable that I should apply, since the most common mixups I see are the 3 hit vertical BBB or the sweeping low AT.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Just seems like you gotta hold back a lot, and make Ivy do the first move, and punish accordingly with 236B/4B if she relies on spacing or highs for safety.

Other than that, I'm just going to see what you guys come up with lol
 
Anti-Ivy?

The thing with Raph vs Ivy is that Raph's most comfortable range is probably Ivy's most comfortable range in CL. 214B will hit at Raph's max range, so I can imagine it being annoying to deal with.

I would go for trying to poke her out of 214B with some quick horizontals (2A should work) but also, getting up close and not letting her used CL at all. Basically, the trick to beating an Ivy player is catching him/her in the wrong stance at the wrong range. If you see Ivy in CL, get up close. If you see Ivy in SW, go to Raph's max range.

Oh, and lastly, most Ivy players will use 214B out of disadvantage. Just think of fighting Ivy as like fighting a lite version of Hilde in terms of range and frames.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Anti-214

1. Anticipate, block, and punish.

2. Let's say I do hit you with 214. I have the following options:

I. Go into SE.
a. Block SE 66K, it leaves me at -10 I believe.
b. React to SE A+K, it's one of the slowest low sweeps in the game.
c. Block SE BBB.
d. Shake SE A236A. You end up taking 5 damage and I'm at -3.
e. React to SE A+B. Seriously, it's very slow. Just backdash, or interrupt.

II. Don't go into SE. This leaves me at -7 even after I *hit* you with 214B.


So there you have it. If you learn to shake the unblockable, I'm pretty much going to be unsafe or at negative no matter what I do. This move doesn't really get Ivy out of a tight situation, it just temporarily averts disaster and makes your opponent take 30 damage.

Or you could just try to predict it and cause massive damage to Ivy. Either way.
 
Anti-Ivy?

No Ivy in their right minds would not go into SE either since it offers no gain, unless its to 214B twice in a row.
 
Anti-Ivy?

her SE A+K , if blocked sets her on to -21, which means it's time to 236B her (4B is too slow and the range isn't as far compared to 236B... same deal with 22)

in fact ..even if you're too slow to connect 236B, Ivy doesn't really have any true punishes for blocking a raph 236B, so you'll probably have to deal with her mixups.
 
Anti-Ivy?

At least 214B is super puniishable. Sorry guys I got nothing, I dont play enough Raph anymore.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Anti-214

1. Anticipate, block, and punish.

2. Let's say I do hit you with 214. I have the following options:

I. Go into SE.
a. Block SE 66K, it leaves me at -10 I believe.
b. React to SE A+K, it's one of the slowest low sweeps in the game.
c. Block SE BBB.
d. Shake SE A236A. You end up taking 5 damage and I'm at -3.
e. React to SE A+B. Seriously, it's very slow. Just backdash, or interrupt.

II. Don't go into SE. This leaves me at -7 even after I *hit* you with 214B.


So there you have it. If you learn to shake the unblockable, I'm pretty much going to be unsafe or at negative no matter what I do. This move doesn't really get Ivy out of a tight situation, it just temporarily averts disaster and makes your opponent take 30 damage.

Or you could just try to predict it and cause massive damage to Ivy. Either way.
Click to expand...


This is some kind of joke, probably.

214B is not -7 its super unsafe.
I'm not sure why I have to repeat this over but - Ivy's 214[B~SE is super disadvantage. ONLY thing Ivy can do to evade Raphs 236B is to step in SE.
She absoultely cannot interrupt anything with SE K or B out of this particular transition. should she step figure out for yourself what you want to do with her.
ALSO the fast unblockable out of SE is duckable on reaction and easily so.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Belial said:
This is some kind of joke, probably.

214B is not -7 its super unsafe.
I'm not sure why I have to repeat this over but - Ivy's 214[B~SE is super disadvantage. ONLY thing Ivy can do to evade Raphs 236B is to step in SE.
She absoultely cannot interrupt anything with SE K or B out of this particular transition. should she step figure out for yourself what you want to do with her.
ALSO the fast unblockable out of SE is duckable on reaction and easily so.
Click to expand...

...


I meant it's -7 on HIT. Of course it's super punishable on block. What I was trying to get at was the fact that I have no way to be offensive after 214B on hit. SE has crap options, and if I don't enter SE, I'm at -7.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Treat her like a little Hilde? Exactly. Tough ass matchup.

The spacing strat is probably the best idea, but what stance she's in is kind of tough to keep track of if you're playing a high level Ivy. At least, if you don't play Ivy yourself.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Agreed. The fact that most high level Ivy's stance transition not only between moves, but during blockstun/animation makes this even harder. You just have to feel out your opponent's patterns at this point I guess.
 
Anti-Ivy?

-7 on NORMAL HIT,

even if it is -7 on CH, it stuns, and it's not shakeable from my knowledge.

Ivy's 234(B) is a super-evasive maneuver, with Raphael in particular, it evades almost his entire vertical arsenal, which is where he's best. IVY WILL GET TONS OF CH'S OFF OF THIS MOVE, making the -7 on hit argument pretty pointless if you ask me.

Seriously, I appreciate your guys help on this issue...and I'm aware that when it comes to defense, besides some sidestepping/GI intelligence, I'm scrubby.


....but it just seems like your gaffing this Ivy-tactic off as "OH IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL IT'S SO EASY TO COUNTER"

no...it's not. Alot of Raphael players are getting their ass kicked by this.

Ruiner
 
Anti-Ivy?

its not a big deal since raph generally is weak to step and 214B doesnt give Ivy any specific advantage. Against other characters this move evades 2A's and other horizontals to no end, but raph is rather turtly character, unsafe evades are not cool with him.
 
Anti-Ivy?

Belial said:
its not a big deal since raph generally is weak to step and 214B doesnt give Ivy any specific advantage. Against other characters this move evades 2A's and other horizontals to no end, but raph is rather turtly character, unsafe evades are not cool with him.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's not as if Ivy even needs to use 214B in this matchup, she can step 90% of his tools anyway and get more reward for it in most situations.
 
Anti-character

Okay, since I seem to be one of the more active Raphael players, I'll revive this thread and understand if we can use prep vs a good yoshi player.

Here's some Yoshi frame data...

i9: 2aB
i10: FC aB
i11: A
i12: a:B+K
i13: K/FC A
i14: 2A/BT A/3K

...So basically....with all these options i13 and under....does this mean at the WORST, Yoshi will clash with Prep A? Which basically means he...umm....SHUTS IT DOWN.

AMIRIGHT? If this is true then Raphael is starting to become increasing depressing....unless it has a Prep VE counter at least....

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

I always chat while I play :-p

Yoshi is a hard matchup, MCF is balls, really...

Also, I'll trade Prep A against anything else that doesn't stun all the time (I trade with Amy 6BB a lot)

Anyway - MCF will beat Prep A, but I'm not sure anything else will (I don't trust the frames on the wiki since I clash prep A with AMY 6bb...i11)...but maybe I can test this more tonight.
 
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