ok 3B is a good move, not AMAZING like it seems like people think here... it doesn't work as well as it does according to incomplete theory...
btw the lack of a late tech crouch is a big deal... lemme break it down. The TC is 6-14. That means he is vulnerable to highs at frame 15 and 16 with a favorable trade at 17. Consider the +2 situation, post aGA blocked, 2K CH, or light pressure from the opponent. To interrupt they'll need i14 or faster to cleanly beat i17 3B -(+2). A high coming in at i13 and i14 will stuff 3B. Well what do ya know, that's most character's fast high interrupt speed. At +1 (post b6), i15 mids beat 3B as well as i14 and i15 highs, or most of WR attacks that would be coming. The common +4: i12 and i11 beat 3B. That's Sophie/Yun/Asta/Tira/X/Yoshi/Taki's speeds.
So where you're looking for CHs there are common situations where 3B won't work. An alternative is 11B if you're reading a high, which TCs from frame 10 on. It won't beat any mids, but mids are not often used while you're at advantage. Yeah, there are other options too.
these aren't normal situations for 3B use in the 1st place, seeing as you could also step. also remember, 3B has better range than most fast highs that can interrupt it, and on top of that, agA spaces. even if you are gutsy enough to attack after iagA in even the worst close range situations unless u have an i11 or faster move, sieg can still land a favorable CH 6K or A trade. start using TC's, which outside of 2A are usually moderate speed (keep in mind agA spaces so 2A likely wont reach anyways) and you'll be back to eating 3B, or even 3A if sieg wants to protect himself moderately against step and crouch.
You have it backwards. When Siegfried is at minor advantage, it's a good time for the opponent to attack. Siegfried is slow. When Sieg's at minor disadvantage, they don't need to use a high to stay uninterruptable, they'd only need it for step-catching. Siegfried is slow. The opponent can use moves that are bit slower than Sieg and still be uninterruptable.
yea, but if u use a mid, sieg can just as easily step 3B(which isnt even that bad on NH launch), even if it tracks to one side. and if it tracks to both sides, siegfried can try a B+K aGI for horizontals, or even just a normal GI. or he can also block.
Another thing to keep in mind... the earlier in your move you TC, the less often it will CH, since the move you crouched will already be over. I'm sure you've experience this many times... it's more of a surprise to me when I go under a high and I get a CH.
free damage is free damage. if its not 70 damage, its 50, or 40+oki. and if im going under a high string like AA or the like, i can almost guarantee i'll land CH.
One more thing! Crouching at frame 6 isn't even THAT early. A lot of his moves on block are worse than -7, meaning the average i13 high will still catch Sieg.
this is actually my fault nor not updating the wiki, but the TC is actually i5-i14, something i retested after seeing pantocrator's 3B video. i5 is actually fairly decent for a TC.(keep in mind siegs earliest TC is i1 with iFC A_B+G) and even in situations where the TC doesnt completely work, sieg usually has options to handle the things that kill the TC.
There's actually only SPECIFIC situations where 3B's TC will work and CH:
-from neutral positions not ruled by frame data
-when you've spaced far enough away that they want to use a different high or need to move up to beat step with a high AND you're not so far away that it won't launch
-you carefully time 3B so that the TC window is in the right place
So "omg it TCs" does not completely describe 3B's evasive properties.
besides the fact that i've described many different ways you actually can use the TC above, again, free damage is free damage, the TC almost doesnt matter if 3B actually hits at that spacing anyways because most characters would have to trade range for frames and 3B will likely interrupt, and at neutral isnt really ever a good time to throw out 3B unless u absolutely know your opponent will use a high, a crude example of this being:
sieg v amy - sieg b4's, amy player blocks it and develops a habit of interrupting follow ups with 6B. to take advantage of this, sieg 3B's.
I hear lots of players not understanding why they're getting hit out of their TC so I felt the need to go into detail. This was more of a public service announcement on why TC frames are important to know more than why 3B isn't that good.
cant argue that its important to know how a move TC's, but i wouldnt say they need to know they exact frames, merely the principle you described after this:
Rule of thumb:
late TC -> effective at advantage
early TC -> effective at disadvantage
which is kinda exactly what i was trying to say...
Ok, so NH 3(B)K leads to amazing oki? Nope! Even if they get up into your RSH mixup, they can step everything (happens to me against the people I play...). Everything else is weak and easy to deal with. It leads to OK oki at best... do you guys even play other characters?
sieg has far more for oki at his disposal than just SRSH (which k & B are i8 and i9 respectively, so yes u can step because step initiates at i4.) not only can he simply cancel stance and be at a good amount of advantage if you even choose to get up, he can also easily kill rolling with SSH. SCH B off NH 3B is a forced block for a relatively low - frame and decent SG. he even has the option to escape with SSH A+B, because that comes out at i12. or he can just simply 3B SCH:KK for 50 damage and rather neutral positioning for both players.[/quote]
3B is no TAS B, CL 1BB+K, Asura, 2KB, 2B+K... it just doesn't come to mind. Whatever, just be happy it's looking really good in SCV! Except it's probably not usable against a lot of characters once they get meter.
true its not an i15 soul crushing mid that combo's for 120+ damage. true it doesnt track, space, agi, it isnt an invisible low ect. but thats not its purpose. instead of filling a niche such as that, it instead provides the swiss army knife of siegfried's style. encourages CH fishing, TC's, good punisher, fast, good range, ect ect ect. TBH i would even go so far as to say, that yes its not the best launcher in SC4, but its definately really far up there. I can say with confidence that its one of the best launchers in the game.
also, this:
If 3B gets blocked, the Siegfried player has made a mistake.
EDIT: fixed a technical piece of information i mis-stated
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