[ARCHIVE] Siegfried Pre-Release Discussion

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Solf said:
So what was his 2P like ?
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TagYouRPregnant said:
51C4CYZfbYL._SS500_.jpg

Pretty much...With his big ass sword of course.
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That's cool, I like his hair a DAMN LOT on this picture. I was anxious we would get another 2P costume with short hair, while long haird Sieg is simply badassery.
 

After saw this video

SCH K BE is easily air controllable now
I mean it seems no longer connect for air combo >_<
just like mitsu 2K BE

and after saw some latest match video
Looks like sieg's player use 3B more often now
 
Cupui said:
After saw this video

SCH K BE is easily air controllable now
I mean it seems no longer connect for air combo >_<
just like mitsu 2K BE

and after saw some latest match video
Looks like sieg's player use 3B more often now
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It wasn't air controllable in the build I played (the most recent one). I don't think it launches as high now, I wasn't able to connect aGA after it.

Yeah they use 3B more often because it's really safe and braindead
 
Signia said:
it means "like playing SCIV Sophie"
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SC5 Siegfried 3(B)
  • linear, tracks one side
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • not safe; must subject to reverse mixups to escape damage or inflict damage
  • reverse mixups give nothing guaranteed - essentially 33/33/33 (math not actually done), and the mixup is removed entirely by holding G.
  • can be punished by Natsu regardless of reverse mixups
  • barely tech crouches
  • at tip range, gives sub-optimal damage and squashes mixup opportunity
  • at close range, gives good damage at the cost of not having other solid close range step killers
SC4 Sophitia TAS B
  • linear, tracks one side
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • safe
  • like I said, safe
  • fuck Taki
  • special movement that leads into is a tech crouch
  • at tip range, gives optimum damage
  • at close ranges, gives good damage at no cost to step killing ability
 
SC5 Siegfried 3(B)
  • linear, tracks one side does it really track to one side?
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • not safe; must subject to reverse mixups to escape damage or inflict damage wrong, the opponent must use a reverse mixup. Siegfried is at "advantage" here because he can interrupt your attacks with K or K$. In SCV, having your opponent block 3B is not necessarily a mistake. The opponent must escape your attacks, Siegfried does not need to use reverse mixup options like going to SBH or SCH sidestep to beat the opponent's options.
  • reverse mixups give nothing guaranteed - essentially 33/33/33 (math not actually done), and the mixup is removed entirely by holding G. But Siegfried does heavy guard damage, the heaviest so far. Sieg and Mitsu seem to get the most guard crushes. You can't hold guard forever, and even if they do block, you're very safe and can continue pressure if your opponent can't throw anything meaningful out to stop you.
  • can be punished by Natsu regardless of reverse mixups not if you space it, it pushes back out of range of AA if you don't do it point blank. You don't have to be at tip range, either.
  • barely tech crouches
  • at tip range, gives sub-optimal damage and squashes mixup opportunity
  • at close range, gives good damage at the cost of not having other solid close range step killers Siegfried indeed has this weakness and others which may be highly exploitable in SCV.
  • hits grounded
  • does big guard damage and forces action or else more guard damage is done
  • when spaced at tip you can G cancel very safely since they're so far away
SC4 Sophitia TAS B
  • linear, tracks one side it only tracks when you do it slow
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • safe punishable by Taki, every time. Spacing doesn't matter, you're always close enough to be punished. Also punished by Lolo's Yoshimitsu with iMCF
  • like I said, safe to most characters, but it leaves you right in front of them no matter how you space it, at -10. This is the next worse thing to "unsafe"
  • fuck Taki nice double standard
  • special movement that leads into is a tech crouch if you do this, the move is much slower
  • at tip range, gives optimum damage
  • at close ranges, gives good damage at no cost to step killing ability
The braindeadedness actually doesn't directly come from how good the move is. It comes from how many uses the move has. Both TAS B and SCV Sieg 3B are useful in so many different situations.

Need a mid to use in your mixup? A whiff punish? A pressure tool to open up your opponent? An early TC? A CH tool to skew string-mixups in your favor? A move to enforce your advantage? Decent combo filler? Oki? Keepaway/Pushout? All accomplished by 3B at various spacings. This is similar to how many uses TAS B has, which is my point. There's few wrong times to use the move, making it braindead to use.


Btw Sieg's anti-step tools aren't even that bad, remember step G is nerfed? But he is a bit weak in the interrupts department, which may be very important since moves are so safe and many give advantage on block. So I'm not too worried about how good Siegfried is because EVERYONE is really good and it might be possible to limit his options really well with a strong offense.
 
You took some things incorrectly - understandable, since this IS the internet.
Signia said:
SC5 Siegfried 3(B)
  • linear, tracks one side does it really track to one side? It really tracks to one side. Siegfried's right.
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • not safe; must subject to reverse mixups to escape damage or inflict damage wrong, the opponent must use a reverse mixup. Siegfried is at "advantage" here because he can interrupt your attacks with K or K$. In SCV, having your opponent block 3B is not necessarily a mistake. The opponent must escape your attacks, Siegfried does not need to use reverse mixup options like going to SBH or SCH sidestep to beat the opponent's options. No one is at "advantage" here. SCH A is beaten by crouching, SCH K and SCH B are beaten by stepping. SCH k(BE) is beaten even harder by stepping, because it takes longer (thus giving you longer to punish from step) and also wastes meter on whiff. The reverse mixup is Siegfried's, not the opponent's - the opponent is subjected to another mixup.
  • reverse mixups give nothing guaranteed - essentially 33/33/33 (math not actually done), and the mixup is removed entirely by holding G. But Siegfried does heavy guard damage, the heaviest so far. Sieg and Mitsu seem to get the most guard crushes. You can't hold guard forever, and even if they do block, you're very safe and can continue pressure if your opponent can't throw anything meaningful out to stop you. It does do good guard damage. If you don't want to subject yourself to guard damage, then play the mixup game. If you don't want to subject yourself to possible actual damage, play the guard damage game. Not to mention - SCH KK and SCH k(BE) are discernible by the bright flash, and SCH KK is mid-high.
  • can be punished by Natsu regardless of reverse mixups not if you space it, it pushes back out of range of AA if you don't do it point blank. You don't have to be at tip range, either. At that spacing, Siegfried doesn't get optimal mixups from it, since backstep makes everything whiff.
  • barely tech crouches
  • at tip range, gives sub-optimal damage and squashes mixup opportunity
  • at close range, gives good damage at the cost of not having other solid close range step killers Siegfried indeed has this weakness and others which may be highly exploitable in SCV. This will be his main weakness, especially if he's found himself in stance at negative or neutral.
  • hits grounded
  • does big guard damage and forces action or else more guard damage is done
  • when spaced at tip you can G cancel very safely since they're so far away Be careful against Voldo, and possibly Hilde.
SC4 Sophitia TAS B

  • linear, tracks one side it only tracks when you do it slow I see. But that helps my case anyway.
  • gives retarded damage at certain range
  • safe punishable by Taki, every time. Spacing doesn't matter, you're always close enough to be punished. Also punished by Lolo's Yoshimitsu with iMCF It's barely punishable. Also if we take lolo into account into every last thing we write, we would all be playing super safe and never do anything that could even possibly be Just Impact'd.
  • like I said, safe to most characters, but it leaves you right in front of them no matter how you space it, at -10. This is the next worse thing to "unsafe"
  • fuck Taki nice double standard Fuck Taki as in Taki can either barely punish it for negligible damage and -2, or if she can get the JF punish it a bit harder. But it's nothing scary, and spaced correctly, it whiffs. Taki isn't a threat against her - thus, fuck Taki.
  • special movement that leads into is a tech crouch if you do this, the move is much slower And it still tech crouches, which is the entire point - if you're TCing something, you're probably also whiff punishing - speed doesn't really matter especially since you can see when their move is done being dangerous.
  • at tip range, gives optimum damage
  • at close ranges, gives good damage at no cost to step killing ability
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Signia said:
The braindeadedness actually doesn't directly come from how good the move is. It comes from how many uses the move has. Both TAS B and SCV Sieg 3B are useful in so many different situations.
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Personally I follow Vincent's modus operandi and believe that TAS B is essentially just a really good punisher. But I'll bite.

Signia said:
Need a mid to use in your mixup? A whiff punish? A pressure tool to open up your opponent? An early TC? A CH tool to skew string-mixups in your favor? A move to enforce your advantage? Decent combo filler? Oki? Keepaway/Pushout? All accomplished by 3B at various spacings. This is similar to how many uses TAS B has, which is my point. There's few wrong times to use the move, making it braindead to use.
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Blue is agreement, red is disagreement.
  1. The optimal mid-low mixup is always going to be SRSH B_K, especially now that both options give CE on hit.
  2. If it's -20 or so, sure, but generally you're either going to be punishing heavy stuff with either 1B or CE, or punishing light stuff with B6, 2A, 1K, etc;
  3. We still need to figure out what the fuck those TC frames are now since they've been changed - New 6K and 11B are still excellent TC tools.
  4. I assume you mean CH fisher. Honestly I'm not sure what we're going to do with CH 3(B) since SCH A+B is gone.
  5. It's not an advantage in the sense we normally use it. Sure, he's at plus frames, but he's in stance - he absolutely MUST make a choice or else he's in danger of being punished really badly. You, on the other hand, can opt to just block, or in the case of Dampierre and Nightmare, use your CE if you have meter - this will prevent him from doing anything, and with SCH 2_8B+K's shitty step, allow Nightmare to simultaneously cover every last option from SCH.
  6. It's not a bad combo starter, but the thing that makes Siegfried combos is the wall, and Siegfried has many (safer) W! options. 6K, JagA, 3A, 22*88B. If you're saying it's good in the middle of the combo, that doesn't inherently make it useful - SBH B ~ 44K is potentially the strongest combo from SBH B, yet doesn't make 44K exactly useful.
  7. This might be a really good oki option, since I've heard 1AA doesn't NCC against rollers anymore. However, on block, it just opens up the same reverse mixup deal.
  8. Don't keep out with 3(B). B6 and 2A do the job without putting yourself in extreme danger, and on the chance that you're playing someone who has longer range than you, tip 3(B) can have you eating a SHITLOAD of damage - Sieg 3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) tip VS Astaroth (block 3(B), punish with 22*88B.
So sure, you CAN use it in a variety of situations, but a lot of characters have moves that can be used in a variety of situations. It doesn't mean that's always the best tool for the job. Siegfried's best tools are in his stances, which is what 3(B) is a pathway to - by being in a stance, you are giving the Siegfried player so much ground that he shouldn't be allowed to have. In this specific game, I would say that blocking 3(B) is, in fact, a mistake on your part.

Also, as I have demonstrated to you, using a move at the wrong time - in TAS B's case, when it WILL be blocked - is going to get you subjected to shit that you don't want to be subjected to, and you will LOSE because of it. If the improper use of the move outweighs all the benefits of using the move in the first place, it absolutely cannot be braindead - thus why I don't believe either of those characters are braindead.

Signia said:
Btw Sieg's anti-step tools aren't even that bad, remember step G is nerfed? But he is a bit weak in the interrupts department, which may be very important since moves are so safe and many give advantage on block. So I'm not too worried about how good Siegfried is because EVERYONE is really good and it might be possible to limit his options really well with a strong offense.
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"Fear makes the wolf look bigger."​
​
That's a saying that's been going around the Siegfried SA as of late, and it tells you everything you need to really know about Siegfried, especially at the beginning of the game. Hell, at the start of SCIV, people were saying that Siegfried was going to definitely be top, and he's just plain old mid-tier.​
​
All in all, I think you understand Siegfried well on paper, but in practice you fall flat. I honestly wouldn't worry about him, and I definitely wouldn't be going around calling this brain dead - since when has potentially and purposfully subjecting yourself to 33/33/33 mixups ever been braindead?​

EDIT: The problem I take with you using "brain-dead" is sort of one of semantics. I've demonstrated that 3(B) cannot be called brain-dead by the traditional definition, and yours as well. However, even if you believe I haven't adequately demonstrated that, even you must admit that's it's incredibly disingenuous and misleading to call anything from a game not yet finalized or released "brain-dead" because of the connotations that has.

The use of "brain-dead" implies that Siegfried is a character that you can easily pick up and win any tournament with using only two moves. We have many veteran Siegfried players (as well as other character players) insisting that none of these changes will make Siegfried broken, overpowered, and in some cases (Cedric) even top-tier, and many of them have made their cases extremely well. To insist the contrary shows a lack of understanding on what Siegfried players have inherently used to great success, and a lack of respect for people who play him.
 
I can agree with most of that. The new improvements to 3B does make Siegfried much easier to play, but yes, you can probably do better by choosing other moves for a lot of the situations I listed.

I've been thinking about some other things that make SCH weaker, like waiting to see if SCH K comes out, since the pushback makes it whiff if they don't anything. Stepping also shifts the risk-reward in your favor.

I didn't even have to try at SCR, since nobody knew how to deal with 3B yet, so that's why it felt "braindead." It could very well go the same as in SCIV where he was perceived as top tier first.

Also, I don't mean to kick the ball over the fence, but you really need to play the game to see how big an impact the buffs to 3B make. You won't be punished by Natsu unless you're right in her face, and you can still be close enough to use SCH K to interrupt other moves. 3Bg is really safe, you still have to guess right, but they often risk eating CH SCH B if they want to reach you. At that range you also risk whiffing SCH followups, though.
 
Signia said:
I can agree with most of that. The new improvements to 3B does make Siegfried much easier to play, but yes, you can probably do better by choosing other moves for a lot of the situations I listed.

I've been thinking about some other things that make SCH weaker, like waiting to see if SCH K comes out, since the pushback makes it whiff if they don't anything. Stepping also shifts the risk-reward in your favor.
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With no meter, you can just wait for SCH K and do a TC move to go under the second one, or stuff him if he tries SCH K, SCH K. With meter, look for the flash and step or GI. I'll probably make an anti-Siegfried video once the game's out, since it's incredibly easy to find creative things against the stance if you know them in and out. For example, Raphael VS Siegfried in SCIV - Raphael A+K actually has a use if you're being subjected to SRSH a lot, because SRSH is the only stance without a BT attack. Sure, A+K is still terrible, but it'll keep you out of harm's way. But as I said, I'll definitely be making an anti-stance video - I've already thought of quite a few ways to beat some stances, but it involves being a lot more creative and pro-active to successfully beat the stance. No more mashing out AA or BB.

Of course, a lot of my pre-release speculations assume much, like that SCH KK and SCH k(BE) won't jail, or that SCH A only tracks one side, etc; a lot still remains to be seen, and if SCH does end up being insanely broken I will definitely be one of the more disappointed people. SCH being good at everything makes SRSH, SSH, and SBH comparatively useless - I'd like to maintain a Siegfried where every stance has its uses that aren't outmoded by others.

Signia said:
I didn't even have to try at SCR, since nobody knew how to deal with 3B yet, so that's why it felt "braindead." It could very well go the same as in SCIV where he was perceived as top tier first.
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It's Day 0 stuff. You won't have to try with anyone exceptionally hard until at least after the first big tournament, since by then we'll have had more than enough time to figure out what does what and how. This is gonna be for everyone, too - when you don't know what someone's capable of, they can be scary when they pull out a mixup you've never seen. But then you go and find out "hey, that wasn't an actual mixup at all, and both moves were -40 on guard and -10 on hit!" after the fact, and then it's not scary any more. I'm not saying that 3(B) will be THAT bad - it's already been shown to be at the very least a solid move - but it will be much less imposing post-launh.

Signia said:
Also, I don't mean to kick the ball over the fence, but you really need to play the game to see how big an impact the buffs to 3B make. You won't be punished by Natsu unless you're right in her face, and you can still be close enough to use SCH K to interrupt other moves. 3Bg is really safe, you still have to guess right, but they often risk eating CH SCH B if they want to reach you. At that range you also risk whiffing SCH followups, though.
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From what little I have seen of Natsu, I have a feeling that she'll be a bad match-up for Siegfried. Her new PO stuff looks kind of intimidating, and makes going in stance something you don't want to do unless you're on hit. And 3(B) ~ SCH G might be safe, but it has the same problem that TAS B has - you're fairly close to your opponent who is going to have better frames than you, and if they predict you're going to cancel stance, any move they do IS going to hit if it's not a sloth like move. And as I have said before, Nightmare and Dampierre's CE make using moves that enter stance extremely dangerous; I have a feeling that throw CEs might present a similar problem, but I'm not totally sure since I don't know how fast those are as of yet.

The only thing I can find at fault is the move's damage. 3(B) ~ SCH B does a metric shitton of damage, especially for no meter and all of the move's other strengths. That should probably be toned down a bit. Other than that, the move's solid, but not broken.
 
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