Are you happy with Siegfried in SC4?

[OffbeatNinja]

Dont forget it has a follow up. If someone blocks the first part just end the string and block. if you notice they are interrupt happy just do the follow up. But yeah it is definitely not godlike and will not be hitting good players too much. It is just a nice option. From max range im pretty sure it becomes safe as well. Ill do both lows then do 8 or 2B+K or even 4b+K A+B and dodge certain 4moves they may try and poke back with.

 

[kPc]

the first low is safe, if you do the second and a sieg player blocks it, they get WS B

 

[Stryker]

In SC3 Sieg was called low/mid tier not because he was that bad of a character, but compared to the tools everyone else had, he was the low guy on the totem pole. Lets face it, to get the opponenet to duck you had to be in some sort of stance or use a throw and even then against a truly solid player, things could get frustrating really easily because if the opponent was a true turtle, then they could block ALL DAY!

Man you are like a mind reader... you totally express my feelings about SC3 Siegf; looks like you were sorrounded by a group of pretty damn skilled players (as I was...).

In SC4 Sieg had some changes to his game play, nothing too drastic in my eyes but definately had some changes. Now to tell you the truth he is not all that different because like I said, he didnt change too much, the gameplay did which diverted our strategy to win, instead on focusing on how to break a turtle with throws and ALOT of dancing, we now have the SG or Soul Gauge. Now moves like B4 has a true purpose. This new change is what makes sieg as scary as he is because lets face it, he is still missing those annoying lows that other characters seem to have but thats ok.

To resume: Siegfried only have a better CH game... a lot of characters have a better (by far) Soul breaking game (like Setsuka or Mitsurugi) they have true soul gauge breaking moves hard to GI and impossible to punish. I play as Kilik and Yun Seong too and I do more CFs playing with then. B4 is really easy to GI (I would wish to have a delay input for this move more tricky then the JF) My friends parry this B4 in a 90% of success... that its too much to be the number one SG breaker of his game. I used to do RSH A+B instead or SCH B_.

Ah, Im not ok about the lack of a good low for Siegfried in this game... if you are playing against a defensive opponent you get angry and angry and frustrated seeing the opponent on a guard stand (like a rock all the way) just waiting for you to move to do the 2A or BB to easy punish.

True he doesn't have a quick non stance sweep, but he has good lows and low pokes with the JF 22A+K A, 2A, 1k, a large throw range to get people to duck and of course the RSH sweep. Yeah it can be easy to see but sometimes ill RSH, cancel and then grab or do a quick mid. Always keep em guessing. That, coupled with the massive soul gauge damage he does, I find its pretty easy to break down defense and get some big dmg CHs.

Sorry man but that its too risky to use when you want... too much pad work to do a simple low that doesn't get advantage, doesn't knockdown, and even can start a combo...

Accept it guys, Siegfried is a CH dependent character... if we doesn't have the luck to hit the enemy in the right moment, we do short amount of damage. If you begin to use a safe game then the opponent will read it and gonna use a better safe game as answer.

-Stryker-

 

[DrakeAldan]

Hmm... I think you're being a bit too negative about Siegfried.

If people are impacting B4, use it on wakeup, or play with last frame/just frame speed variation...

if your opponent just won't stop guarding, just play safely... stuff like SRSH A+B is good, like you said.

I chose Siegfried as my "spacing" character, and I use him as such. I personally think this is where his strength lies, not in pure aggression but more of a roundabout way.

You space properly with long-range moves, and you chip away at the soul gauge. again, if you're spacing properly, these moves should be hardly punishable if at all.

Should the opponent come in close range, you have tools for that (3B, throws, 6A, etc., etc.) It's better though to stop them before they get in close at tiprange (B6, 11B, agA, wrB, etc., etc.)

You never actively rush into close range unless you're advancing on wakeup or tripping your opponent up by doing it unexpectedly... all their blocking and your "offensive turtling" hurts their soul gauge and keeps you out of reach.

Now, assuming that you control when you let the opponent in or not, it should be easier to hit counterhits if you know when they're coming in, and the frames on your own moves... I believe it's more of a battle of attrition, where if your opponent can't keep up, he makes mistakes and also then leaves himself open to counterhits.

That's the theory, anyway... I'm no Siegfried expert, but this is what I thought was expected, looking at how he doesn't have the same tools as other characters.

 

[kPc]

this is so true, which is truly annoying, because of this I use apprentice as a back up (hes just so much fun) because I do tire of the whole just sit there a wait.......wait.......THERES AN OPENING....ATTACK!......wait...ect

drake- if you face a true turtle with siegfried you could understand our frustration, what your talking about is if the opponent ever gets tired of wait and rushes you down, well there are players that do nothing but turtle, they will poke you once and run away *cough* WING ZERO *cough* VINCE *cough* JTO *cough*

 

[Stryker]

That's the theory, anyway... I'm no Siegfried expert, but this is what I thought was expected, looking at how he doesn't have the same tools as other characters.

That's all? thanks for nothing... the most real part of your post was "I'm no Siegfried expert, but this is what I thought was expected..."

Don't miss understand me, always there a way to make the things works, but its not the same trying to do a hole with your bare hands than using a shove... We as Siegfried's players are fighting with bare hands: No reliable low hits; 75% of the moves are vulnerable; and the best part is that while you are thinking about: "Oh, we have a strong CF game!" there's a bunch of characters that gonna make you a lot of SG damage without sweat a simple drop.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but maybe my counterparts are too strong... my regular opponents are Judas (best Mitsurugi on Dominican Republic), Yasel (Best Astaroth, and best Yoshimitsu, current No. 2 in the last tournament), Nelson (Best Voldo on DR since SC2), Eliezer (Best Ivy, last Number one in SC3 on DR), Nando (Best Setsuka, current number 3 in our national ranking), Magic (Best Taki in DR)...

When I play with everybody else Siegfried just look like a beast...

The point is, I'm not happy with Siegfried, but its the only character I really really want to play, and I get so frustrated when I found analyzing situations that he is the most vulnerable character in the game, and that the incredible damage he could do after CH hit is duplicated by a lot of characters even on Normal Hit.

-Stryker-

 

[hotnikkelz]

Sorry man but that its too risky to use when you want... too much pad work to do a simple low that doesn't get advantage, doesn't knockdown, and even can start a combo...
-Stryker-

That low you speak of gives around 6~8 frames of adv on hit, and is hardly punishable on block vs more than half the cast. Also consider it's one of his few moves that rack that good (next to WS A). You SHOULD use it, and train on your execution.
I promise your game will be improved if you master this move.

Also, throw much more vs opponents who like to block too much. Throw and use that same low.

 

[kPc]

nikkel- hes not talking about it being good on frames nor hard to execute. whether its good low or not its slow as balls and rarely hits the good players that know about it, and once the good players find out that you can do a jumping attack to interrupt its over, its not hard to see by any means.

about throws, I dont know about you but I have faced some ridiculous people who break almost any throw which I ant understand why since its a mix up

 

[Stryker]

That low you speak of gives around 6~8 frames of adv on hit, and is hardly punishable on block vs more than half the cast. Also consider it's one of his few moves that rack that good (next to WS A). You SHOULD use it, and train on your execution.
I promise your game will be improved if you master this move.

Also, throw much more vs opponents who like to block too much. Throw and use that same low.

6~8 frames of adv on hit? That little advantage doesn't count against good players... When you talk about WS A thats what I'm talking about men: easy to check the counter hit for the secondary hit; excellent range against far walking turtles; easy cancel to change the "timming"; good damage and does RO sometimes... that's what I call a good to use move, even it is unsafe it doesn't matter cause is good and fun to use. If you going to use a tool you have to check first if you can use with confident; if doesn't feel confident then you will be worried instead of confident and positive when using it. Think about it.

And remember this nikkels when you are facing a truly confident opponent who is full of desire for winning, no throw can reach then... they gonna be far away waiting for you to desperate and try to hit them with your silly 1K, 2A or 22_88kA:A2A (too much finger work for a single slow motion low)... Try to find a new group of partners for play cause you need to take the red pill and let wonderland behind. Try to not find any safe turtle on your way cause you'll have a huge brain ache.

-Stryker-

 

[OffbeatNinja]

I dunno I can do that low whenever i want now pretty much. Its not that hard to do and due to its range, its hard for your opponent to hit you out of it if you are playing the spacing game with it. The way i play Sieg is basically very rarely will I block. I throw out moves and stance evasions from a distance all day. Stance cancels into other moves also throw the opponent off guard a lot. For instance i will do 4b+k, cancel out and do an iWRA or something like that. Since I am across the screen the opponent cant really do much to interrupt me, and attacking in such a manner makes siegfried really hard to read. If my opponent is vert happy any time they block a safe move of mine im going to 2 or 8 B+K...etc etc. Sieg has ways around a lot of moves.

 

[Spidey]

Come on Stryker chill. U sound like Sieg is completelly doomed.

Sieg has many good wpns and is like a god compaired with others and like a hero at worst case compaired to the gods above him, if u get what im saying :P

Whatever finger work is required u should just do it. Realise that this game need more skills than the previous, adjust to it its not that hard.

About the experienced opponents its not like we play against noobs all day :P
In sc3 i was afraid of every Sophie, Cass and Taki i was about to deal with, but here i have no fear cause i actually have choices against them (im a side step fan, imagine that in sc3 where it didnt exist :P ).

Im sure you will do great if u play totally focused ;)

 

[kPc]

I dunno I can do that low whenever i want now pretty much. Its not that hard to do and due to its range, its hard for your opponent to hit you out of it if you are playing the spacing game with it. The way i play Sieg is basically very rarely will I block. I throw out moves and stance evasions from a distance all day. Stance cancels into other moves also throw the opponent off guard a lot. For instance i will do 4b+k, cancel out and do an iWRA or something like that. Since I am across the screen the opponent cant really do much to interrupt me, and attacking in such a manner makes siegfried really hard to read. If my opponent is vert happy any time they block a safe move of mine im going to 2 or 8 B+K...etc etc. Sieg has ways around a lot of moves.

Whats up ninja, now what I`m about to say plz dont take any offense to I`m just proving a point, but you used that same strategy against me at NEC, which was good because you have a crazy offense, but do you see how that can be shut down against someone that knows what to do against siegfried? Mind you it was a close game, but you had to change things up and almost won it in the end. Now picture that knowledge with someone who uses kilik, amy, the sisters, ect..... You have alot of stance game but always keep in mind there are people who arent scared of people dancing on them, I myself look for it. Its still very hard to win with sieg when your facing top class people. It still feels I have to work so hard to win but if the opponent just reverts back to the basics, failure can be seen. Once again offbeat you know we are cool I was just proving a point.

Spidey- same thing goes for you, you may play good people, but do you play top people? This isnt an attack or anything but when I play people offline, I usually play against the best on the EC or people from ATL (For some odd reason everyone that comes from there is automatically solid....must be the water), or from canada. These were the only type of people I played even when I played 3 all the time and once they got used to sieg gimmicks then it all narrowed down to who had the best spacing and defense. Now its alittle different since if they like to go block happy then we can crush a turtle but once again if they know what to do, it makes it realllll hard. I can relate to what stryker is saying because he is playing in a similar enviroment (Where the people you play around you are considered some of the best with their character). I wont name drop people that I play but lets just say they are very well known

 

[hotnikkelz]

nikkel- hes not talking about it being good on frames nor hard to execute. whether its good low or not its slow as balls and rarely hits the good players that know about it, and once the good players find out that you can do a jumping attack to interrupt its over, its not hard to see by any means.

about throws, I dont know about you but I have faced some ridiculous people who break almost any throw which I ant understand why since its a mix up

Yes kPc, he IS talking about it NOT giving good frames AND it being hard to execute.
Slow as balls? Dude. It doesn't matter, considering it's safe at mid range. I don't even see people consistently jumping stuff like Rock's 1A and that's slow as hell. You're speak theory here. It hits good players unless you're saying that from all the vids i've seen with good players and all the ppl i have played against personally AREN'T good players.

It doesn't matter if they break your throws or not, it's still 50/50 and it's not skin off your back if they break it. Just do it.

Stryker.....+6~8 frames is substantial. Don't give me that you can't do shit with that vs good players dribble. If YOU can't do much with that much adv, then i dunno what to say. That's an uninterruptable throw for the most part. It's doubtful then that any more adv would've made a difference for you. How much adv you want? +15? Dude i play good players and many great turtles in my life, don't be insulting. You need to relax and re-evaluate what YOU do. Post vids of your your 'hopeless' matches if you think the guys here can help as well. I personally would like to see these turtle gods you speak of and i've seen ALL your vids on your channel, and i haven't seen one turtle yet.

But in any case, turtles were ALWAYS hard for Sieg to beat but damn man. Open your mind.

 

[Stryker]

Come on Stryker chill. U sound like Sieg is completelly doomed.

Not doomed cause is still fun to play, but the most I learn the most I get frustrated... one of the trickiest moves for Siegfried is 3KKB: in SC3 the opponents regularly takes the risk to land a move and then be tricky with the remains K,B after 3K; that's not a problem anymore cause any 2A can interrupt and punish 3K,K so the only choice is to do only 3K... that move could be a natural combo but no. They could gave it more advantage or even chance to do as combo on CH. 3K its an important move, but could be more useful with some better properties.

Sieg has many good wpns and is like a god compaired with others and like a hero at worst case compaired to the gods above him, if u get what im saying :P

I agree totally. Siegfried have many excellent weapons, but the point is that not the same number than the others... And agree too that is like a god... compared to Rock.

Whatever finger work is required u should just do it. Realise that this game need more skills than the previous, adjust to it its not that hard.

The move its not that hard, I could pull this move in 95% of time, even on hard matches, the problem is the risk-reward problem, cause you had to think before pull a complicated move. These game doesn't need more skills, in fact for Siegfried is the same cause the JF from previous are the same or even easier.

-Stryker-

PD: The only SC I didn't play was SCIII:AE

 

[kPc]

nikkelz- ok lets compare

1A with anyone- offline its not hard to seebut it does hit sometimes Unless people know its coming your right, you wont see many people jump it, but thrown out there it most likely will be blocked. its a single move

now lets talk about a+kA2A, A high with decent speed into a slow low, yea its safe, but I still dont find myself doing it more than 2-3 times in a match. Hardly any of the good players I play against get hit with this more than once or twice. I`m not going to lie, I`ve only seen it jumped when whored out but blocked almost everytime, hell even online people always block, and if I see people using it more than they should I`ll just B+K it. its not that hard.

 

[hotnikkelz]

nikkelz- ok lets compare

1A with anyone- offline its not hard to seebut it does hit sometimes Unless people know its coming your right, you wont see many people jump it, but thrown out there it most likely will be blocked. its a single move

now lets talk about a+kA2A, A high with decent speed into a slow low, yea its safe, but I still dont find myself doing it more than 2-3 times in a match. Hardly any of the good players I play against get hit with this more than once or twice. I`m not going to lie, I`ve only seen it jumped when whored out but blocked almost everytime, hell even online people always block, and if I see people using it more than they should I`ll just B+K it. its not that hard.

I am not referring to that high to low combo, that attack although is decent for containment, is not what i am talking about. I'm referring to is this STANDALONE low (see link). The notation is the same but the input is different. It is important for Sieg for many reasons which I'm not even gonna bother to go through. Also it's doubtful that you're going to B+K this on reaction i'm pretty sure, it's already difficult to jump reflexively.


look at the 14 second mark

Rock is strong

Anyway...contradicting yourself Stryker, i've urged u before to that move, u say it's too hard/too much work, now all of a sudden you can do it 95% of the time? (although i've never seen u do it your vids btw). Risk reward? What is the risk if you can do it 95% of the time in hard matches? You SHOULD have to think before you do every move. The attack is like -16 at close, around -14 or less at mid range. Given that you have the second A, if they punished it, they COULD'VE have eat the second on CH. It's properties are way better than his 1A.

 

[kPc]

ok we were talking about the low in a+kA2A not a+kA:2A(which is NOT safe)

your right I dont see anyone jumping that and I do hit alot of people with this move though I wouldnt recommend whoring it. But yes I`ll agree that is a nice tricky low.

and please, your now just theory fighting which no one wins with the whole "Well if they try to punish the first then you can hit him with the second." That just doesnt work and I`m pretty sure the second hit is interruptable if the first is blocked but not 100% positive, will test tonight but I strongly advise that against a top player, be as safe as possibly with little high risk, I`m telling you, you will get punished hardcore with giving them the chance t get on their offensive game.

 

[Spidey]

a+kA2A IS interruptable between those two hits, but it doesnt make it less useful. Try a+kA[A] to SSH K/A+B. The variaty is huge..

Oh and.. about those pro ppl punishing whatever you do with Sieg. Why dont u do the same vs them? Respond 100% correct each time they do sth, im sure it can be done.

 

[hotnikkelz]

ok we were talking about the low in a+kA2A not a+kA:2A(which is NOT safe)

your right I dont see anyone jumping that and I do hit alot of people with this move though I wouldnt recommend whoring it. But yes I`ll agree that is a nice tricky low.

and please, your now just theory fighting which no one wins with the whole "Well if they try to punish the first then you can hit him with the second." That just doesnt work and I`m pretty sure the second hit is interruptable if the first is blocked but not 100% positive, will test tonight but I strongly advise that against a top player, be as safe as possibly with little high risk, I`m telling you, you will get punished hardcore with giving them the chance t get on their offensive game.

Well i'm not sure why u guys thought i was talking about the other one since the other move is not a low but merely a HIGH with a low option. I started of by saying it's a LOW attack.

Either way the low in that string a+k:A string IS safe i'm sure of it. For that reason many of his options work. That's a mind game attack, and i consider it important for him being it's around i15?! it's fast.

I don't recommend whoring any attack really, but it is a MUST use for any good Sieg. It is his best low attack and one of his best attacks period.

Wasn't theory fighting, i was not suggesting the use of the second A, only reminding everyone that the option DOES exist (we do forget from time to time). I don't use the second hit at all, but if u come across a hasty opponent I'm pretty sure you will land that second hit. It is hardly interruptable if the first is blocked, as it is similar to 1AA in that regard. Only something like a 2A might interrupt it, and i doubt that even will. Can't be sure though cuz noone tries to.

 

[kPc]

IT IS NOT SAFE!

its just as punishable as 1A!

the fakeout to a low is NOT SAFE!