Balance Patch Discussion

[Vlaster]

Belial, i dont understand why Nightmare's GS B shouldn't combo into another GS B, although the damage of this is pretty high, i think it deserves its damage considering this move is pretty slow, i think ppl who eats this move deserves that dmg, i mean you cant mix low or throws with GSB or even use this as whiff punisher maybe in extremely rare situations.

Viola
i just have to say doing 140 dmg combos with moves that also blocked give you ridiculous advantage for another move that can take the half of you HP, and you are also allowed to use the meter you want to increase even more the ridiculous damage of the mentioned one single BE 140 dmg combo, is just retarded.

Patroklos
i noticed you didnt post any nerf to Patroklos, i think they should nerf mainly 2 of his moves, but i dont know your reasons, so you can explain me so i can get your point, here are some of my thoughts

66B - his 66B being -2 on block is just retarded, i mean a ¡21 move w does 80 dmg without meter using, and build almost an half of an entire meter gauge in its combo, and after a GI if you dont GI back is guaranteed regaining the meter you wasted on the GI, even its recovery on whiff is ridiculous, and is supossed to be a linear move but is just impossible for some chars like Nightmare for example to evade that to Patroklos's right side, and considering he have pretty good lows and pretty good throws and im not talking about his 66B+G throw, we know you can cut the damage by mashing buttons, his A+G throw makes 55 dmg and gives an nasty okizeme game after it.

1B - This move should freeze more on block, i mean almost 70 dmg on NH and neutral (0) on block with chance to use BE for RO or bigger damage.

and im not gonna talk of some other things like having a ¡15 punisher that makes 72 damage and also have chance of clean hit, an WS A+B that does 70 dmg without meter using and can do more 81 dmg with his 236 B BE or 102 dmg with his CE and also cant be stepable at least i tried in practice and cant, etc.

Alpha Patroklos
I think his 2143aB shouldnt combo into another one, the damage on this is so ridiculous for the speed this have, a ¡12 move that can take more or less 90 damage, this make that he have tools that in my opinion are overpowered on a char like him.

a char so fast like him shouldnt have 2 massively damaging throws, more than 100 dmg with the 214 B+G throw without using of meter and around 65 dmg or more with his A+G throw

his CE, i know it only does 55 dmg but punishing things like a single K on block is just retarded, if you have 2 bars then you have two chances of punishing, there are 110 dmg and he doesnt even need to waste meter on his combos or punishing or anything besides GI's like everybody, he punish almost everything of Nightmare with that, a single K, a single B, punishing Nightmare's 4K for example even if i do the second K or Nightmare's B even if i do second B, etc.

i also agree with Omega of Algol and Astaroth

btw good job with this thread

PD.: Other things,

Natsu - WC A+B should stun on ground this move is just useless now

Siegfried - give some logical use to his 2KKKKK and fix his randomly whiffing issues

Xiba - fix randomly whiffing his second move K of his CH 6A K on some chars and fix people getting BT after JG the K of this move at close range

peace

 

[Belial]

Updating first post.
List of changes:

aPat:
- Increased freeze on 33B block to -13. Synraii also suggested increase to -14 and no pushback, but I fear that would involve even more disbalance, where some characters cannot punish at all, and other (Pyrrha etc) can deal massive damage.
- JF window for FC 3B:B decreased.

Cervantes
- Cervy aB - more unsafety, less pushback on hit and block. Suggested by Maxou, Hyrul and JustinAkaski. I also concur to their arguements on this move. I feel that -22 is too much, though. -19 and less pushback would mean launcher punishable by every character in the game. At the same time this move will keep at least some measure at range.
- Reduced damage off 1AB CH by 10 pts
- Added unsafety to 3B (-15)

Ezio:
6K2: Reduce freeze on hit -18->-9
3B: damage gain 10 pts both CH and NH

Omega:
- Decreased CE damage by 10 pts. I also agree that her DNS B and NS A need some kind of small nerf, but further discussion is needed.

Pyrrha:
- 66A increased freeze on block to -13

Viola:
Added most of Maxou suggestions.
- 3B also decreased tracking to left side (right now move has almost 100% tracking both sides)

While I find Sach ideas interesting they fall into "complete rebalance" strategy (nefr one but buff other to make up for nerf), which is really hard to implement.

For Ezio: My original intended buffs were close to Sachs suggestion, but I erased them. I returned some of them now.

Deleted Kalas posts by his request. He will compose a full list with help of other top LeiXia players and put this up.

I dont find many of suggested nerf to be really significant. Lets aim to balance stupid stuff, else the whole thing might never get approved if any.

Belial, i dont understand why Nightmare's GS B shouldn't combo into another GS B, although the damage of this is pretty high, i think it deserves its damage considering this move is pretty slow, i think ppl who eats this move deserves that dmg, i mean you cant mix low or throws with GSB or even use this as whiff punisher maybe in extremely rare situations.

There are many instances, where you can hit with this. Yes there are ways around this and yes, most good players will not get hit by this. But I dislike Idea of havint 100 meterless damage off a safe move (nmv it tracks). And its not that slow. You cannot react to this like you can to 22_88B or 66A for example.

Viola
Patroklos
i noticed you didnt post any nerf to Patroklos, i think they should nerf mainly 2 of his moves, but i dont know your reasons, so you can explain me so i can get your point, here are some of my thoughts

I agree with your thoughts on the matter, but this is a community thread, not Belial thread.
66B is a little bit too good an need more freeze as 1B does. 1K wouldnt hurt to be nerfed too, either more unsafety or less hitstun.

Alpha Patroklos

Once again I agree with your thoughts, but I think Namco has pretty much made the point. They did some chars ridiculous difficult execution and as a tradeoff they gave them powerful damage. Thus I fear, we are better off asking for more difficult execution, rather than damage nerfs.
His CE is his CE. I fear there is no way to balance it. We have to play around.

i also agree with Omega of Algol and Astaroth

I have no idea how to balance Astaroth. He is obviously one of the best chars in the game, but I fear ruining him is very easy with reckless nerfs.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Personally I would recommend not suggesting anything except minor nerfs for Astaroth and Ω. They are really strong but I'm not 100% convinced that they are too strong, unlike the others being discussed. These characters do at least have weaknesses.

Sorry to repeat but:

Viola

Reduce hitstun on 44A
and
Reduce hitstun on VS 6B+K

seem like common sense nerfs to me. I won't bring them up again, but if anyone has reasons why these are no good, I'd be interested to read them.

 

[Omega]

There is only one nerf i see for astaroth, his 66 k BE, to much damage and to effective, imagine Leixia vs that monster, leixia has to poke her way around, but astaroth does revenge on everything that she uses, and it kills a lot of chars not only leixia but she came in mind, Alpha the only thing i would change is that the second umbrella dont hit after the first one, that will balance a lot of his damage, is my opinion, keep it up BEL.

 

[Synraii]

Viola just needs a master switch that we can just turn EVERYTHING down on, lol. I think Alpha needs nerfing as well though Hyrul - right now, he throws harder than Astaroth and mixes it up with fatser mids for almost triple damage. I love my character, but his damage potential is retarded right now.

Alpha Patroklos
I think his 2143aB shouldnt combo into another one, the damage on this is so ridiculous for the speed this have, a ¡12 move that can take more or less 90 damage, this make that he have tools that in my opinion are overpowered on a char like him.

72 damage actually. =)

JF T, JF T should still combo though: Punishing -12 moves with this is stupid difficult and he is supposed to be the best punisher in the game. Its only reliable really at -14+ moves and even then it depends on blockstun (with exceptions - eg Leixia 66AA, lol, poor Leixia). To me its just an Alexandra stab with ATTITUDE and remember, it is death on block vs the whole cast. I just say nerf the combo to 60-65 dmg and its fine imho. =/
I mean, you won't be punishing generic 2K with this much at all, I can assure you, haha.

 

[Ring]

Omega

DNS B - maintain distance on block.

The main problem with this move imo is that despite being unsafe (-14), it has crazy pushback which prevents a lot of characters from punishing it on block so it can be mindlessly spammed in some MU's. Reducing the pushback would solve this.

I will add more for other characters later.

 

[Sacharja]

While I find Sach ideas interesting they fall into "complete rebalance" strategy (nefr one but buff other to make up for nerf), which is really hard to implement.

I am fine with keeping things simple. If I were to look solely for cutting down on the bullshit currently in the game, my general list would sort of look like this:

Algol:
- increase 66B freeze on block
- BE loop damage nerf

Alpha:
- JF Twister doesn't hit grounded anymore
- increase 33B freeze on block
- increase 66B freeze on block
- remove character specific ch 8A+BA combos

Asta:
- 66K BE revenge launch needs to be changed to a different knockdown or at least not allow for a guaranteed 22B (BE)
- CE turned into attack throw
- 22B BE tracking removed

Cervantes:
- increase 3B freeze on block
- 1AB pushback on hit removed

Hilde:
- remove C2 B loop

Ivy:
- CE turned into attack throw

Mitsu:
- increase 4B freeze on block

Omega:
- increase DNS B freeze on block
- increase NS A freeze to prevent NS B/CE follow-ups OR change the stun to a groundslide that only guarantees a DNS B (similar to CE on airborne opponents)

Patroklos:
- increase 66B freeze on block
- increase 1B freeze on block

Viola:
- increase 3B SET freeze on block
- remove 44A BE delay
- reduce 6B+K hitstun

Some of it has already been mentioned. So feel free to add my name behind the changes in question in the first post.

 

[docvizzo]

aPat
-FC 3aB and 3a:B(JF): Damage decrease 7pts (Belial/Maxou)
- 2aA+B+K: Damage decrease 5 pts (Belial/Maxou)
- 33B maintain distance on block; Add freeze on block -11->-13 (Maxou)
- FC 3B:B(JF): Decrease JF window to 1 frame (same as 1B:B) (Maxou/Synraii)



Cervantes
- 1AB: maintain distance on hit; Increase freeze on hit -6->-12; Decrease damage on CH by 10 pts (Belial/Maxou/Docvizzo)
- 66B: Decrease damage on first hit 30->25 (Belial)
- aB: Maintain disatnce on hit and block; More freeze on block -18->-19 (Maxou, Hyrul)
- 3B: More freeze on block -12->-15 (Maxou)

I never agreed 1AB beeing -12 on Hit, i think thats too much in combination with the other nerfs proposed. I understand how Maxou wants to punish me with his CE on Hit + AA punish on Hit, but risk reward for this Move is actually quite ok when your opponent accepts that stepping on close range is just not a very clever option.

A blocked 1AB means 100+ DMG for most character with meter use, Alpha of course without any meter. If you refuse any form of mindgame and just stand all day blocking neutral of course this move will annoy you. But good people start to Jump a lot more and even duck from time to time. Blocked 1AB is so much reward already.

So im sure Maxou and Hyrul who play me a lot accept that this move is a lot easier to handle with more prectice. Still annoying for sure.

The real problem where all the whining comes from is about 1AB ch properties when people try stepping, 70 DMG is too much. Somehow i understand how this one move just takes away a whole game aspect on close range. Thats the real problem which makes fighting Cervantes so annoying. I dont think the 20ish Damage on NH are a big trouble, more that it is probably best antistep on close-midrange in the game.

What i think needs to be fixed for Cervantes are just two moves, rest is debatable:

-1AB: Take away iGDR followup and buff the JF ch Damage up to 55. Maybe change to -8 or -9 on Hit.

This will also take away the BT Mixup after iGDR, which is an additional nerf. This way 1AB will still be a good to tool, Cervys only low btw. Making it unsafe on Hit + changing distance + taking away damage is too much imo.

-aB: Way too abusable on far range against certain chars. I agree on making it -19ish, not more.

1AB changes + aB changes will change a lot for certain chars, this will really balance MUs more.

Cervantes really stupid Matchup is Alpha. Alpha punishes basically ANY offensive tool with JF Twister or 44B+K BE. Making 1AB so much worse + making also 3B JF Twister punishable will make this matchup horrible. Only safe Mid against Alpha is 1BB. Also 3B will give Alpha 100 DMG with 44B+K BE.

Changes to Alpha imo that arent in your list:

-33B take away random tracking. (33B input has different tracking than 2363B, it hits you sometimes when you are almost behind Alpha)
-66B, take away tracking.
- FC 3A+B, should be -18~-19 on block. Regarding he gets another 100+ Combo with RO to the Front, Right and Wallsplat is a bit weird risk/reward when you cant punish on far range. -16 is a bit too safe for this imo.
-44B+K BE: Take guaranteed 33B out of Combo, leave JF Twister with the already mentioned damage nerf.

 

[Vlaster]

Viola just needs a master switch that we can just turn EVERYTHING down on, lol. I think Alpha needs nerfing as well though Hyrul - right now, he throws harder than Astaroth and mixes it up with fatser mids for almost triple damage. I love my character, but his damage potential is retarded right now.


72 damage actually. =)

JF T, JF T should still combo though: Punishing -12 moves with this is stupid difficult and he is supposed to be the best punisher in the game. Its only reliable really at -14+ moves and even then it depends on blockstun (with exceptions - eg Leixia 66AA, lol, poor Leixia). To me its just an Alexandra stab with ATTITUDE and remember, it is death on block vs the whole cast. I just say nerf the combo to 60-65 dmg and its fine imho. =/
I mean, you won't be punishing generic 2K with this much at all, I can assure you, haha.

Man i always say that the difficulty of a move is not a valid excuse to have ridiculous properties (both great speed and so huge damage in this case), my point is that it can be mastered, and possible to do, i know it is pretty unsafe on block but it is supposed to be used for guarantee punishing, i agree you should have some reward for executing difficult just frames but in a move with such speed the damage is so huge, even with one single 2143 a:B in his combos the damage is high but not ridiculous like it is when you get that twice in a combo. I put that option of removing the double umbrella in combos cuz this could balance a lot the damage on his throws and his combos which is exaggerated if u consider the speed, reach and safety in his combo starters

and also adding his punish power which is without a doubt the best of the game not only cuz of his 2143aB he also have other tools like his 44b+K BE (i think is ¡14 speed or ¡15 at least) which also does a pretty high damage, have an great reach and is not that hard to execute. I agree with you Pyrrha's stab is easier to perform is one of the best punishers in the game but at least Pyrrha doesn't have the reach, the throws, the lows, the launchers and the high damaging combos that AlphaPat have and also you have to consider Pyrrha's stab when hit at far range is negative on hit only 30 dmg but still i think its one of the best punishers in the game

my teammates Omega and Lolo also think like this

 

[Kvasir]

The Maxi changes that I think would balance him ideally:

Buffs

-Bigger hitbox on Jump K. 9K +frames on hit (+0 to +1)​

This move has some whiffing issues, and everyone deserves one decent TJ. Maxi is no exception.​

-LO K +frames on CH (+4)​

LO can be nearly ruined by step. LO K is the only guaranteed option vs step. There should be some reward.​

-Tracking on 2K​

Maxi's OTG options are unjustifiably poor after most KDs. Having his higher risk/reward option consistently viable vs rolls would greatly help with this dull situation.​

-Damage increase on BL BB (20 -> 25 and 26 -> 30)​

When you consider that BL B and can step-punished very hard after being blocked regardless of whether or not you use the follow up it's clear the risk exceeds the reward by too much for such an important tool.​

-1B forces stand on hit/CH​

It's a key move and the stance that's forced after it puts Maxi is in a weaker position than he ought to be after hitting a crouched opponent.​

​

Nerfs

-6A+B smaller horizontal hitbox.​

This move is far more difficult to avoid by stepping than it ought to be.​

-LO K less safe on block (-14 to -16)​

If it were buffed then the higher reward would deserve a higher risk.​

-6A less safe on block (RO~G from -13 to -15)​

The reward and utility of this move warrant a higher risk.​

 

[Age_of_Truth]

There is only one nerf i see for astaroth, his 66 k BE,

This move can at least be stepped or JG'd on reaction, making it quite risky. After a step you are nearly behind him, making launch combos even more damaging. I know it's good but it's not a move I think needs desperate attention. Maybe 22B guaranteed is too much.

I think Alpha needs nerfing as well though Hyrul - right now, he throws harder than Astaroth and mixes it up with fatser mids for almost triple damage. I love my character, but his damage potential is retarded right now.

Yeah I know, that's what I said.

So im sure Maxou and Hyrul who play me a lot accept that this move is a lot easier to handle with more prectice. Still annoying for sure.

Yeah 1AB is quite high risk low reward unless it catches step. Sure it is annoying that it can be used for chip damage AND anti-step, but it is short range and very unsafe.


I have already made my case to Maxou and Saitoh that aB is the worst move of all. I believe for Maxou it is 1AB and for Saitoh it is 4B BE. Perhaps the reward on 4B BE could be toned down, because it's pretty awesome that Cervantes can attack and either hit for a giant combo, or be blocked for an advantageous mix-up. But at least he does take risks when he attacks afterwards: BT B+K can be stepped and throws can be crouched, leaving him open to big punishment.

 

[WARUI_NE]

Aeon
Remove sandwinger Be cancel its literally the worst move in any fighting game ever
1k- add range
4B+K- make -12 instead of -10. The move has super tc, mild tracking, Tj, safety and breaks soul gauge quite well.
Normally I wouldnt nerf a low tier but the move is stupid.

66a-more damage on ch and more + frames on hit.
3k- make its block frames -8 from -11
22b - -10 on block
6(k)- maintain distance on block
lower command throw damage to 60 from 65


Atm I don't think sandwinger stance can even be salvaged...its just terrible by design

 

[Omega]

This move can at least be stepped or JG'd on reaction, making it quite risky. After a step you are nearly behind him, making launch combos even more damaging. I know it's good but it's not a move I think needs desperate attention. Maybe 22B guaranteed is too much.


Yeah I know, that's what I said.


Yeah 1AB is quite high risk low reward unless it catches step. Sure it is annoying that it can be used for chip damage AND anti-step, but it is short range and very unsafe.


I have already made my case to Maxou and Saitoh that aB is the worst move of all. I believe for Maxou it is 1AB and for Saitoh it is 4B BE. Perhaps the reward on 4B BE could be toned down, because it's pretty awesome that Cervantes can attack and either hit for a giant combo, or be blocked for an advantageous mix-up. But at least he does take risks when he attacks afterwards: BT B+K can be stepped and throws can be crouched, leaving him open to big punishment.

Yea i understand Age, but that move works like a GI, good astaroth players like lolo rarely miss 66k BE, and some chars after they sidestep it or JG dont do nearly as much damage as he does with it, but like i said its just my opinion and my team. O and the combo is not 66k BE 22b, is 66k BE 22_88 K 22b BE ( if any more bar), you know the rest.

 

[Omega]

Notice how much bar 22k ads to the meter.

 

[Maxou]

Please, let's not try random nerfs for Alpha like I read sometimes. I don't understand why so much people whines on the character when so little people play the character or against a correct Alpha.

Belial : if your thread is read by some Namco officials please let it be known that I am all in favor for an Alpha nerf.
But :
- FC 3B:B shouldn't be 1JF like 1B:B. This is an useless nerf. I thought it was a good a idea then I thought about it and realised making FC 3B:B harder to do is just kinda stupid. The move will have the same properties, even with 1JF. Besides, let "noob" Alpha players have a "easy JF" for them to use in combo. Let 'em have some fun.
- JF Twister into JF twister is not broken as it is. You don't punish moves -12, -13 or -14 with it or either you're a sick robot or you really expected it. It's an alexandra stab and that's it. Most of the time, you use something else btw (44B+K or 44B+K BE).
- Sacharja said "JF twister shouldn't touch on the ground" well, congrats you just removed 80% of Alpha's combos. This is a dangerous nerf. A ridiculous one. A stupid one.
- JF Twister into JF Twister should definitively be easier to do. A 2A BE slide would be perfect (and 2A BE into JF Twister is still ridiculously hard btw, but it is easier than JF T JF T). But I totally agree it should be less damage.

About Cervantes :
- I said what I would change about him. No -12 hit or something like that. Don't associate me with that. Just remove the pushback.
- CH 1AB iGDR should be 55dmg or less.
- Well I see Docvizzo doesn't like to nerf his character and this can be understood. But if most people says there is a problem, well... there is a problem. 1AB and aB are not 100% of a problem. They're part of the problem.
Like I see it, if you nerf Cervantes just like Docvizzo said, the character will still be top3. And still be unbalanced.

 

[docvizzo]

About Cervantes :
- I said what I would change about him. No -12 hit or something like that. Don't associate me with that. Just remove the pushback.
- CH 1AB iGDR should be 55dmg or less.
- Well I see Docvizzo doesn't like to nerf his character and this can be understood. But if most people says there is a problem, well... there is a problem. 1AB and aB are not 100% of a problem. They're part of the problem.
Like I see it, if you nerf Cervantes just like Docvizzo said, the character will still be top3. And still be unbalanced.

Why? I agree on the same changes concerning 1AB and aB. Sure the char will be still good, top 3 probably. If the plan is to make everyone mid tier then sure there should be more. If the plan is to remove the really important stuff than by nerfing 1AB and aB most of Cervys problems are solved. Still very good but not retarded.

Also i agree on some minor stuff, which is more unimportant to me, like Saitohs 4B BE etc. I dont think its a big deal, but a minor change in damage is absolutely fine to me. Maybe Saitoh needs to say what is his biggest trouble with this.

 

[ChaosK]

I actually didn't plan on posting my own list but nevermind. I will only make some siegfried suggestions.

Siegfried

- 2KKKKK remove pushback: for the same reasons heaton mentioned
- CE damage increase 93->110

- Make 3(B)~SCH KK a NC: Right now, the second K is air techable, which leaves sieg with only guaranteed 39 dmg on NH. Even though he gets big reward with 3B on CH/ or with spending meter, he should get some reward on his staple move on NH, also considering 39 dmg is among the lowest NH damages of any chars 3B launcher. The combo would give him guaranteed 50 dmg.

- Increase the backstep range of 4B+K: I have to second sacharja here. SSH is a stance designed for whiffpunishment. The current range of the backstep being so short, makes it very impractical for that purpose in my eyes and most players consider it to be a bad stance for that reason. Increasing the range of the backstep, would serve the design intent of the stance and would encourage more players to use it.



With that being said, the most important buff for sieg, is the fixing of his whiffs.

 

[Vlaster]

we understand Maxow, but i think underestimating others opinions is not a correct way to defend your point, i think is not correct to labeling people with things like "not playing against a correct AlphaPat"

btw explain me and i would love to have some good reasons of why is that SO necessary for him to have a double JF twister in his combos and throws (which are much more damaging that Astaroth's ones and considering Astaroth doesnt have those hella fast middle combo starters that Alpha have to mix with his throws) and would help if you write the damage of his combos with the best alternative way to combo without the double JF Twister and with the double JF Twister.

peace and thanks

 

[Saitoh]

Decrease Clean hit probability on half circle A+G throw. (sorry don't know the notation for that move yet)

Then you'll have to invent a new clean hit rate : D since it's already C, aka the lowest possible =)

 

[Maxou]

Obviously you haven't played Woahhzz, he has asian execution, his alpha is scary... And I assume he is the best alpha or he is close to be. I haven't seen Nando from DR either, which was the best Setsuka in 3 and 4 by far.

He is probably the best US Alpha ;)

we understand Maxow, but i think underestimating others opinions is not a correct way to defend your point, i think is not correct to labeling people with things like "not playing against a correct AlphaPat"

btw explain me and i would love to have some good reasons of why is that SO necessary for him to have a double JF twister in his combos and throws (which are much more damaging that Astaroth's ones and considering Astaroth doesnt have those hella fast middle combo starters that Alpha have to mix with his throws) and would help if you write the damage of his combos with the best alternative way to combo without the double JF Twister and with the double JF Twister.

Reduce his double JF twister damage and 2A BE damage. Problem solved. No more Asta-like throw damage.