Balance Patch Discussion

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Maxou said:
1. Sacharja said "JF twister shouldn't touch on the ground" well, congrats you just removed 80% of Alpha's combos. This is a dangerous nerf. A ridiculous one. A stupid one.
2. JF Twister into JF Twister should definitively be easier to do. A 2A BE slide would be perfect (and 2A BE into JF Twister is still ridiculously hard btw, but it is easier than JF T JF T). But I totally agree it should be less damage.
3. Well I see Docvizzo doesn't like to nerf his character and this can be understood. But if most people says there is a problem, well... there is a problem. 1AB and aB are not 100% of a problem. They're part of the problem.
Like I see it, if you nerf Cervantes just like Docvizzo said, the character will still be top3. And still be unbalanced.
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I don't want to get involved in your top tier rivalry with docvizzo, but:

1. No it's not ridiculous. I think one JFT after 214B+G, CH 33B, 44B+K BE,... is enough. Well, damage is his main reason for being top tier, isn't it? So why would it be stupid to take it away? Is CH 33B ~ 2143B:B ~ JFT not enough? I think JFT should not hit on the ground anymore. That wouldn't even make his tools worse, it would only reduce his ridiculous damage output. Honestly, I really don't get what's so ridiculously stupid about this idea.
2. I don't agree. It should not be easier. At least you agree on nerfing the damage.
3. Well you don't like nerfing your own character either. Alpha would still be top even with your patch suggestions. And probably still broken.
 
You know what we can do also, to fix it, lets give everyone, safe launchers, distance, power, a B+K 82 damage, abusive throws, great lows, safe pokes, great punishment, hey but wait its JF thats the problem, o but its stepable, lets not forget here that we are all players and repect each others opinion, dont know if it is an european effect but i dont think so, cause i dont hear Saitoh, KEEV, AKIRE, MALEK, ect undermining great players, lets put the ego down a bit, peace.

O and by the way i know how to use Alpha very well, and those JF if they can be called JF are not difficult, hey but thats just my opinion.
 
I agree about Astaroth's 66K BE btw. Especially when it allows a 28B+G after a 22B BE relaunch, that's totally stupid =)
It should still counter a lot of things 'cause it's risky on block, but the damage should be around 60, not 120-180 haha
 
Kalas said:
I don't want to get involved in your top tier rivalry with docvizzo, but:

1. No it's not ridiculous. I think one JFT after 214B+G, CH 33B, 44B+K BE,... is enough. Well, damage is his main reason for being top tier, isn't it? So why would it be stupid to take it away? Is CH 33B ~ 2143B:B ~ JFT not enough? I think JFT should not hit on the ground anymore. That wouldn't even make his tools worse, it would only reduce his ridiculous damage output. Honestly, I really don't get what's so ridiculously stupid about this idea.
2. I don't agree. It should not be easier. At least you agree on nerfing the damage.
3. Well you don't like nerfing your own character either. Alpha would still be top even with your patch suggestions. And probably still broken.
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1. It's stupid because IF you take in consideration all the nerf I proposed you just over-nerf the character.
It would totally make his tools worse, if you make this you take away a lot of potentials out of his antisteps, his KD, his whiff punish, his tech trap game, his punishing game.
3. I don't like nerfing my character. I really don't. Still I propose some really hardcore nerfs about Alpha (33B being unsafe, 66B no tracking, reducing 2A BE and JF T damage).
 
I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention to the nerfes you mentioned before.
How much should JFT JFT do according to you?
 
Saitoh said:
I agree about Astaroth's 66K BE btw. Especially when it allows a 28B+G after a 22B BE relaunch, that's totally stupid =)
It should still counter a lot of things 'cause it's risky on block, but the damage should be around 60, not 120-180 haha
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Some damage nerf in that combo, Revenge is good as it is, but 60 is too little for a BE, when someone like Dampierre has a 121 dmg launcher without bar... Prolly between 90-110 would be good, as you said, on block, is risky, most chars will get CE or launhcer.

I've discussed this with Omega, is the only thing he finds wrong with Asta, the Revenge combo.

I would like to add Dampierre's 11B, 236K.... Is a just frame, but I've seen Oof get that most of the time, and that thing is 121 dmg, no bar needed... sure, it's unsafe as hell, but is meant to be a whiff punisher, a no bar needed 121 dmg punisher.... damn, did I mentioned that generates almost half bar?...

Also, 263B is godlike, somewhat like Patroklos 66B, but faster, and it has a good combo, above 80 dmg, and I don't know the frame data of that, but it feels like -3 or something like that.

Anyway, so many things need to be patched, but I will forgive everything if I get Yoshi's Tekken moves to be timed as in 4 or if Patroklos gets removed of the game.
 
How can a Char like this, can have the same power as Astaroth or even more, mmm somenthing is wrong.
 
2nd page ended, pls keep discussion civil. You want to figure out the best aPat - go PM pls.

Summary:
aPat:
Need much more discussion
- Everyone agrees 33B need less pushback and more freeze. And less tracking.
- Not everyone can agree on how JFT need to be fixed. To tell the truth punishing even -15 moves for 42 (1 twister) is more than 90% of the cast can do. 2 twisters... I believe the damage of this punishment must be capped at 55 max.
- 66B need a decision, is it nerfed, or stay as is. My opinion if we implement Maxou damage nerf (2A(BE) and Twister namely) it will balance this move very well already.
Overall I think Maxou suggestions on aPat is very good and we should support it. Too much discussion over small things are not good. Even if Namco will listen, they will still probably do things their way.

Astaroth:
It seems that suggested nerfs are good.
- 22_88B(BE): decrease damage by 10 pts. This will also slightly nerf damage off 66k(BE)
I think it would be good to decrease damage on 2_8B+G by 10 pts also. That would remove ridiculous damage off 22B from sidestep.
66K(BE) Everyone seem to agree need a nerf.
Sacharja suggest CE made AT(asta and Ivy). CE can be ducked if you anticipate it with reaction. I tested that. Yes, very hard, but at lower level - let it stay as a great comeback tool IMO.

Cervantes:
We need fix for
1AB
aB
3B
It seem everyone agreed on:
aB: maintain distance on hit/block, more unsafety ~-19
3B: more unsafe -15
1AB: maintain distance on block, decrease damage. I think 10 dmg nerfs is a good number.
I still dont understand reason behind 4B(BE) nerf which doesnt accomplish much imo.

It is okay if Cervy remain top3 with perfect execution IMO.

Patrokolos:
I suggest this nefrs for pat
- 66B: Increase freeze on block -2->-11 - this move is just too good for amount of damage it deals. -11 guarantees that on any range guard, most characters will be able to contain Pat somehow.
- 1B: Increase freeze on block 0->-4
- 1K: Decrease opponent freeze on hit +2->+1 - will prevent 66B from hitting backdashes here.

Omega:
- Added ring suggestion for DNS B maintaining distance on block.
What do you think of Sach suggestion to only allow DNS B combo after NS A?

Viola:
Hyrul suggest to nerf hitsun on two moves 6B+K and 44A. Both seem a reasonable nerfs to me.
However most players agree that 44A(BE) delay(hitdetect) must be removed instead. Also Sach agree on 6B+K nerf. However, if her combo damage is nerfed, that might be the last thing that allow good damage setups. We have to thread carefully here.
 
Belial said:
Cervantes:
We need fix for
1AB
aB
3B
It seem everyone agreed on:
aB: maintain distance on hit/block, more unsafety ~-19
3B: more unsafe -15
1AB: maintain distance on block, decrease damage. I think 10 dmg nerfs is a good number.
I still dont understand reason behind 4B(BE) nerf which doesnt accomplish much imo.

It is okay if Cervy remain top3 with perfect execution IMO.
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I think for aB most agree on a slight block freeze nerf, so that it becomes punishable for all on max range, but in a way it doesnt make too horrible on Block. 1-2 Frames worse and its done. this will allow Natsu, Leixia and co to constantly punish it i guess without giving other chars 100 DMG on a block.

For 1AB i'd suggest to take one of following nerf options:

- Option 1: Reduce CH Damage by 10-15 Hitpoints. This is achieved not by making iGDR less damage but by making 1AB less, this way bad execution will give you even less. Nerfed base damage... ch 1AB right now is 47 DMG + iGDR, it should be 35 maybe + iGDR.

- Option 2: Increase base damage up to 55, take away iGDR followup. This will nerf the same way damagewise, but will take away BT Mixup afterwards.

-Option 3: Remove 8 hitpoints and 2 Frames start up. Making it a bit slower will reduce the constant "FREEZE" Situations this move creates, since its so fast that attacking will give you a ch most of the time. I think this is what bothers a lot of people also.

I feel all options are viable without making this move trash, which is important.

Concerning 3B:

3B beeing NOT -14 or more is the one move along with 1BB that saves Cervantes from beeing free too the greeks. Making this move -15 wont change much for characters like Natsu, Leixia etc....it will only destroy Cervantes vs. Greeks, which are his hardest matchups already anyway. Normal Characters will still just AA you, making it -15 will only buff the super punishers in the game...Omega, Alpha, Pyrrha. Makes no sense to me.

What is debatable and a massive, but absolutely acceptable nerf to me, is taking away tip range launch properties. This is new since SC5 and probably too much.
 
lolo said:
I would like to add Dampierre's 11B, 236K.... Is a just frame, but I've seen Oof get that most of the time, and that thing is 121 dmg, no bar needed... sure, it's unsafe as hell, but is meant to be a whiff punisher, a no bar needed 121 dmg punisher.... damn, did I mentioned that generates almost half bar?...

Also, 263B is godlike, somewhat like Patroklos 66B, but faster, and it has a good combo, above 80 dmg, and I don't know the frame data of that, but it feels like -3 or something like that.

.
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Edit: 121 dmg? Might need to check on it...variable with clean hit I guess


623B, you mean, is i22, -4 on block, very good move yes, when it actually hits at the crucial time...

AZ
 
Ok, here's my list. Feel free to agree/disagree.

Since some characters have already been addressed and I mostly agree with the changes (aPat, Viola, Cervy, Mitsu) I will add something to others.

Patroklos

66B - more freeze on block. Slightly less meter increase on hit.
1K - less advantage on hit. Can be neutral imo (he still has 11_77K which is +2 and TCs). If not, remove tracking to one side.

Natsu

AAB - maintain distance on block, but in return reduce the freeze on block (-14 > -12~13)
66B - reduce damage (48 -> 40). Increase Clean Hit rate. Maintain distance on block but reduce freeze on block (-16 -> -15)
66AB - increase freeze on block (-16 -> -18)

* I think Natsu in general deals too much damage with moves that have too much pushback. She isn't Astaroth. AAB is very difficult to JG, cannot be GI, has small freeze on block and huge pushback. I'd say remove the pushback but make it slighly less unsafe, so all characters can punish it with AA/K etc but she won't get stabbed by Pyrrha's. 66B reduced damage would be compensated by increased clean hit rate. Reduced pushback would allow a lot of character to retaliate which now is possible for only a handful of characters. 66AB deals a lot of damage on CH, has a lot of pushback, and the second hit cannot be GI or stepped, JG is difficult. Imo a pushback reduction or more freeze between hits or on block would be good.

Leixia

3B - increase damage (21 -> 25)
FC 3B - increase damage (26 -> 31)
3B+K - increase damage (28 -> 33)
22_88K - more advantage on hit (+2~3)
WS B BE - less damage scaling in combos

She needs more damage in general. I think all her main combo starters (3B, FC3B etc) should have a damage increase. 22_88K should have + frames on hit to compensate for the KND, which was removed in 1.02 patch.

Ivy

22_88B BE - increase damage of the second hit (15 -> 25) or reduce freeze between hits so it cannot be GI/auto GI (but JG still possible)

The reason for this is that the entire combo on hit does merely 59 dmg which isn't enough for a BE in my opinion. Right now this is her worst BE move, the least useful. The second can be easily JG or GI/auto GI by many characters. Also normal combo 22_88(B) 5-hit does 75 dmg so it's always a better option.

Another thing about Ivy is her CE. Right now I think it's strong, but going back to 1.01 speed will make it the worst CE in the game again. It's not even guaranteed after a GI a lot of times because of it's small reach. I don't know what to do about it.

Asta

22_88B BE - remove tracking, at least to one side
CE - like in Ivy's case, I'm not sure. However, Asta's CE is much stronger due to its incredible reach and hidden startup.

I think 22_88B shouldn't track. It's already a whiff punisher that does half life on hit. I would like to know what Saitoh thinks about my ideas here.
 
Are we really using damp as a comparison for things? His high damage is easily offset by the random failures of his moves. You should multiply his damage by like .6 to compare his damage to account for chance of failure
 
22B not tracking is fine BUT if they fix that, I fear the move begin to randomly whiff like Siegfried's stuff =)
In case you didnt know, in the earlier versions of the game, Sieg 22B and such moves used to track a bit, too much for Project Soul anyway. When they fixed it, it began to whiff randomly. Soooo .. yeah, careful here.
 
For sure adjust Nightmare and Sieg iaga so its not slower than regular aga. That makes no sense what so ever. Make iaga 15 frame and aga 16. Iwould like to see Nighty CE be able to GI other CE's. He has no way of guaranteed damage off successful GI unlike the rest of cast if they GI back. Maybe this could ease that pain somewhat. Leave GS B GS B GS k BE combo just lower the damage a little. Get rid of WR k and bring back the knee. Possibly bring back the GS (B) transition into NSS. Would love to see the bA GS back as well.
 
Here my list:

I agree with mostly of the changes up to now in the list in the first page.

Patroklos
1k on hit can be neutral, remove tracking to one side
1b -4 on block
a+b less frame on the GI window

Leixia
3b FC 3b 3b+k 5 damage more

Cervantes
4b BE +4 on block

Mitsurugi
4b break guard in 10, the other changes proposed by belial are ok
236b 5 damage less even the BE version
FC 1bb no more nc on the big characters, damage nerf ( from 24-18 to 20-16 )
no more double CE
2kb less damage

Astaroth
22b and 22b BE remove track at least one side, 10 damage less break guard in 8
2_8b+g 10 damage less
66k BE damage capped to 60-80

Algol
66 b more freeze on block
CE damage change from 135 to 120
QI b and QI k remove tracking
FC 8 b BE damage change from 40-20 to 30-20, nothing guaranteed even in combo
nerfed damage in all the BE combo

I disagree with some nerf to Nm and Omega. GS b of Nm is ok, it is slow and linear, no tc. DN A of Omega I
think is ok too, it is unsafe and high.

I'll add other character later.
 
Uber1337 said:
Are we really using damp as a comparison for things? His high damage is easily offset by the random failures of his moves. You should multiply his damage by like .6 to compare his damage to account for chance of failure
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There's nothing random in 11B, 263Kx8, 4B, but anyway, people don't really complain until they get raped, lol, I remember in SCIV, in France Yoshi was considered low tier for so long while I was raping people with him...
 
lolo said:
There's nothing random in 11B, 263Kx8, 4B, but anyway, people don't really complain until they get raped, lol, I remember in SCIV, in France Yoshi was considered low tier for so long while I was raping people with him...
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That is true, but that is balanced by the fact that 11b is unsafe and his other stuff fails. Do you not think damp is bottom tier? I don't think he's completely inept, but I still think hes in bottom 5. Unless oof has changed his mind, I thought that even he agreed that he is pretty low down there.

But anyways, maxi buffs:

B+K aGI: we should get a followup afterwards again. The way they nerfed it in 1.02 was too much. It is now only a last resort attempt at saving your own ass rather than a worthwhile read of your opponent. Just make the move not slide as far away so we can get 66b, we don't need the stun into CE.

4B: Undo the pushback that they added on hit in 1.02. its really annoying how often 4bb whiffs on the second hit because of this.


Zwei buffs:

-6a: make more safe
-3a: make more safe
-3b: make it -13 or -14
-B throw: no longer affected by EIN cooldown

And...

1b]: fastest EIN released safe (but not charged EIN).

This last change i'm unsure about what effect it would have. It would give him a high damage safe CH combo, but I don't think its anything outrageous for an !21 move. I could be wrong though, this might make him stupid. If that's the case, an altetnative buff would be

1b] k: K can't be interrupted, maybe make it slightly punishable. This would at least make it so characters can't completely shut it down with quick long range TC moves.
 
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