Balance Patch Discussion

[AKNova7]

Leixia

She needs more damage in general. I think all her main combo starters (3B, FC3B etc) should have a damage increase. 22_88K should have + frames on hit to compensate for the KND, which was removed in 1.02 patch.

(I'll address the other characters in a larger post when I get more time, but I wanted to throw this your way real quick.)

I'm going to ask you to consider something. See, when WR B BE was nerfed in step initiation time, it's main reason was to stop people from being able to absolutely ruin opponents when rising from the ground. Leixia used to be a much more dangerous pressure character because you could Vertical/Horizontal Mix-Up people between her Horizontal Impact (4A+B) and WR B in these situations. However, when they nerfed the step speed, it messed up the frame work. Almost all her attacks (except 2A) that leave her in FC are around -10 or -11. This is because the mix-up I referred to was intended. However, we don't want the option for WR B to be braindead off the ground. So here's what I propose, even though, it'll seem a little strange at first.

Find the new step speed of WR B/BE

Adjust the frames of 1B, 2B, 3B+K, WR A+B B, 3A, 3B+K, BT 2B, and all the rest of the ~FC moves to have the same difference in frames between block and hit to compensate for the speed decrease in WR B/WR B BE

The reason why I say this, is because, honestly, WR B/BE definitely needed to be nerfed. It didn't deserve to be nerfed in Safety, Guard Break Damage, Scaling, Step Speed, and aGI frames. That's a little much. Especially when they didn't take the time to fix the part of the play-style of the character they removed as a side-effect.

-----

Natsu

4A+B: Decrease radius so move doesn't catch step. I don't have big problems with the move, but the absolute worst thing about this move is that it catches normal step, sort of like Bullrush. That's the biggest problem IMO.

Since it's a single bomb, there has to be something done to make it balanced like the SC4 cannon. Remember, in SC4, if you blocked the first hit of Ninja Cannon, you could jump the second.

 

[hoshinocomet]

My take on Mitsurugi.

Nerf
-4B - Remove the tracking to one side.
-A_B+G Damage decrease 5 pts.
-6B8 Damage decrease 32->28

Buff
-MST A_B+G - Damage increased 5 pts.
- MST kB - Damage increased, 44-> 48
- MST A+B - Increase opponent freeze on block -3 -> 0
- MST A - Damage increase 28 -> 32
-bA - CH damage increase, 48-> 52

 

[Ramon]

My take on Pyrrha

66A needs to be -11 and nothing more... why would you suggest it to be more unsafe than Omega and not mention her 66A Maxou?

everything else is perfectly fine... just my 2 cents

 

[IdleMind]

As an aside, while I have no specific balance changes to request and would like to leave that to those better suited and more knowledgeable, I do have one comment on the way the discussion is handled.

Currently, the format looks like this:

Player A: I think X.
Player B: I disagree with X, because I think Y.
*Discussion ensues, sometimes going nowhere*

I would suggest the thought process behind every change, no matter how small, be explained in the initial suggestion as to look more like this:

Player A: I think X because of reasons A/B/C.
Player B: I challenge your reasoning because of my own reasoning, D/E/F.

The point is, if people cannot accurately articulate the framework for their reasoning, they shouldn't be commenting - tournament player or not.

"This move does too much damage" is less helpful for commenting than "This move does too much damage because it's niche is as a poke, and this does 50% more damage than pokes of it's speed and safety, and doesn't fit in with every other tool the character has with regards to their move-set."

Of course you might say that maybe only a few people are capable of talking in such a fashion or with such articulation. Well, I'll just let you add up what that means. Please carry on, this has been very enlightening and interesting so far. Hope this post doesn't get deleted (or quoted by trolls looking to pervert its intentions).

 

[Maxou]

My take on Pyrrha

66A needs to be -11 and nothing more... why would you suggest it to be more unsafe than Omega and not mention her 66A Maxou?

everything else is perfectly fine... just my 2 cents

66A needs to be unsafe because it does turn your opponent on CH, and sidethrow can be done for 70dmg (okay, I admit it depends on range).
The mix up is ridiculously nice for Pyrrha. Out of a mid antistep tool, safe, and that can antibackdash !
- the mind game option are just ... wrong. It "kills" mind game, freeze is more often than not the best solution (I don't know if you get what I mean, sorry for my poor english).
- The risk/reward is just wrong too. Risk : nearly none, it's a safe move. Reward : Potentiel damage is great, not only does it allow veeeeery good mix up option (CH + opponenent sideturned and he needs correct mind game decision because of 70dmg throw), it forces opponent to freeze if he doesn't want to get hit by this move, hence augmenting her throw/low game.

Either she gets unsafe, or she doesn't and opponent doesn't sideturned on CH.

Omega's 66A doesn't sideturn opponent on CH AND it's semi-unsafe (-12). That's why I didn't mention her 66A.
And still, it is a very very annoying and good move.

So 66A being -11 is okay for me, if there is no sideturn on CH, just like Omega's.

Idlemind : I totally agree with you.
I do try to explain my thinking process, but sometimes it is boring to talk, especially when the change some people propose are kinda random.

 

[docvizzo]

Am i the only one who thinks Pyrrhas 22_88K is a "bit" too strong? The evading potential together with the sick TC Frames shuts down so much stuff . She has so many setups for this, against Asta it basically evades anything he does. Its more or less the safe, high version of 22B. Sure 22B has RO etc...but i feel this move kills too many options of the opponent with close to no risk at all.

Also its sick good damage for beeing -7, combos into 236B:4 and into CE.

While i think Pyrrha is a well rounded char that doesnt need too much adjustment, imo this moves needs a bit adjustement. Thats the only thing for Pyrrha from my side.

I suggest making it a bit worse on block or shortening the TC Frames a bit. But im curious on other peoples opinion on this move...

 

[Maxou]

I do agree Pyrrah's 22K is a very strong move.
But this move has decent weaknesses that balances it :
- You need to use it at disadvantage to get max-potential out of this move
- It is high, and can be antistepped.
- It does kill a lot of things. Expect... backdash, antistep, delay into verticals.

It isn't as stupid as 66A in my book. The risk/reward is way more balanced IMO.

Moneymuffins : stop caps locks...
What is your point? Arguments please.

 

[Tofma]

Patroklos
-66b: -14 on block. Namco needs to nerf this for me. Why should I have to learn how to counter it?
-1k: neutral on hit. This move is so stupid. I'm too lazy and impatient to deal with some pressure so it should be nerfed.

Astaroth
-66k BE: This shouldnt launch if the revenge activates. Quite often I recover before the revenge even hits and if I just block the first hit I can easily just guard and launch and second. So since it's already somewhat risky it shouldnt have any good reward either. It should just give that little buttstun like a regular 66k
-22b BE: Nerf it so that a JF 28b+g afterwards only does 70 total. I dont want to be punished by a character designed to do a shitload of damage if he happens to guess right and uses some meter. That's just stupid and goes against any logic.

 

[franman]

What is debatable and a massive, but absolutely acceptable nerf to me, is taking away tip range launch properties. This is new since SC5 and probably too much.

I agree with this one as it makes the most sense as this applies to characters in general.

My question (and excuse me for my lack of character knowledge) I was wondering what would be the problem if Pyrrha's and Omega P's 236B is nerfed by making 236B at least launcher punishable on block by 3Bs in general?

Here's what I'm thinking... It's TC (I think), it can be used as a punisher as well as gamble type of move, and upon hit if just framed right you get 62dmg.

 

[Ring]

My question (and excuse me for my lack of character knowledge) I was wondering what would be the problem if Pyrrha's and Omega P's 236B is nerfed by making 236B at least launcher punishable on block by 3Bs in general?

Here's what I'm thinking... It's TC (I think), it can be used as a punisher as well as gamble type of move, and upon hit if just framed right you get 62dmg.

But it is already launcher punishable. Omega's and Pyrrha's 236B was already nerfed in 1.02 patch. It was -16 on block in 1.01, then it was nerfed to -18.

 

[Eli123s]

Shouldn't the push back of Pyrrha 3B be address too, its a very spammable move with little risk. Because of the push bad it makes it imposible to punish unless shes right in your face or does it near the edge.
Also wondering what your feelings are on Cery 22K. avoids verticals beat horizontals and tracks

 

[Age_of_Truth]

I dont find many of suggested nerf to be really significant. Lets aim to balance stupid stuff, else the whole thing might never get approved if any.
...
He is obviously one of the best chars in the game, but I fear ruining him is very easy with reckless nerfs.

Too much discussion over small things are not good. Even if Namco will listen, they will still probably do things their way.
...
However, if her combo damage is nerfed, that might be the last thing that allow good damage setups. We have to thread carefully here.

Wanted to repeat these things for emphasis.

This is Belial's thread and his idea, not mine, I don't want to give the impression I'm directing the discussion or something.

It would be a mistake imo to make small adjustments to damage and frame data for half the cast. If we identify the stupid stuff first, and then make suggestions to change it, it's more likely that PS will consider it as a small list of essential changes, rather than a giant list of small adjustments.

By stupid stuff I mean

Pat 66B

Viola's oki launch combos and 44A hitconfirm

Asta revenge 75% combo even w/o wall

Risk/reward of key moves for top tier

For specifics, I think atm the list of nerfs for Viola are too much. Nerf to 44A and 6B+K already fix the crazy things. Nerf to back throw and 2B+K BE make sense but could hit the character very hard. Making VS 3B -16 is just too much imo. It would be a disaster if these characters became overly weak.

For Pyrrha and Asta, they are very strong but too many nerfs could kill the character. I agree Pyrrha's 3B, 22K and 66A are completely spammable, but every character has some dumb stuff. We should be absolutely in agreement that nerf X is because move X is clearly too strong. Same with buffs and weaknesses.

 

[Belial]

Okay, stupid stuff IMO:

aPat: JFT damage, 33B spam
Algol: 2xCE, 66B damage/blockstun
Astaroth: 66K revenge damage
Cervy: 1AB CH damage+tracking
Dampierre: 236K JF series damage/simlicity to do
Ezio: BB hitconfirmable BE followup
Hilde: 5xC2B in combos
Ivy: CE (too fast/or too much dmg)
Maxi: WS B+K too safe
Mitsurugi: 4B too stupid in every respect.
Nightmare : NSS : backdash -NSS- bA - RIDICULOUS evasion. Almost impossible to punish even if read.
Patrokolos: 1B and 66B too little blockstun.
Pyrrah: 66A too good on hit.
O.Pyrrah: DNS B too safe. DNS A: too much damage.
Raphael: too many random wiffs
Siegfried: too many random wiffs
Tira: 3A too good since possible to hitconfirm
Viola: 44A hitconfirmable. BE damage loops
Voldo: Retarded hitbox (NM 1A going through on BS etc)
Xiba: 3B~RMB - transition too fast.

 

[Ring]

For specifics, I think atm the list of nerfs for Viola are too much. Nerf to 44A and 6B+K already fix the crazy things. Nerf to back throw and 2B+K BE make sense but could hit the character very hard. Making VS 3B -16 is just too much imo. It would be a disaster if these characters became overly weak.

I have looked at the Viola changes again, I think they quite ok. I don't think she would end up being overly weak with those changes.She will still have 100dmg + combos but there will be more risk to them.

Making her 3B more unsafe is the only really serious nerf, but I think it's needed to balance the risk/reward of this move more. She gets near 80 dmg w/o a meter and over 100 dmg with one BE. Same thing should apply to Cervantes' 3B.

44A BE combo will still do about 40-50% on hit with an additional BE. Delay must be removed, no questions about it. Preventing the ability to cancel the orb motion - I assume this change is to prevent 6B+K to combo after 44A BE second orb hit? Not sure how much that changes, except nerfing her RO game a bit.

Backthrow must be nerfed as well. Backthrow into 44A BE means at least 130-150+ dmg depending on the amount of BE used, that's way too much. 3B combo after a backthrow is already more than most (if not all) characters get.

B+K BE and 6A+B nerf will prevent her from having ridiculous (150 -200) damage in combos. Nerfing multiple 2B+K BEs I guess will hit her RO more than damage (for example, 44A BE 6B+K(2nd orb hit)6B backthrow 3B AAB 2A+B 2B+K BE 44A BE 2K 2B+K BE dash AAB 8A+B can RO from mid screen like Hilde in SC4)

I agree about 6B+K though, I think the hitstun could be reduced so that she won't get half life launch combos after 3A, 6B etc but still get guaranteed damage, just less.

 

[Uber1337]

If all we seek is balance, I think ask we really need is a few slight changes to the top and bottom tier. My brief list of essential changes:

Nerfs:

Apat: -JFT damage reduced.
-33b less spammable

Algol: -66b more disadvantage.
-Less tackling on QI k.
-22a more disadvantage.

O.Phyrra: -DNS B more unsafe.
-DNS A damage reduced

Viola: -Remove 44a BE confirm or make second hit steppable even without delay. Nerf damage as well.
- 6a+b air stun reduced.
- B+K BE damaged nerfed

Cervy: - aB slight damage Nerf. Less pushback on block.
- GDR damage slightly reduced

Mitsu: - 4b should be easier to step.
- 2KB BE no meter gain


Buffs:

Tira: -Jolly 6AB should be CH confirmable.
- Increase chance that jolly 66b BE will change moods

Zwei: -1bk uninteruptable
-6a more safe
-3a more safe
- fix WS B combo randomly failing
- B throw uneffected by EIN cooldown

Raph: -Prep K tracking improved
- More damage in general. I really don't know where to start

 

[Wandrian]

We don't know for certain the full list of what can or cannot be done to tweak characters since we don't have intimate knowledge of the game's coding, right? On that assumption...

Viola: Briefly nerf forward movement after SET back throw, possibly add a few "lag" frames where forward step wouldn't be possible.


Assuming that can even be done, that would eliminate that particular infinite. Would that make it impossible/too hard for her to use any other tools though? I'll readily admit that I'm not very knowledgeable about Viola but the thought of eliminating any possible infinites sounds good to me.

 

[redihokuto]

Seriously

**Algol

66BB > -4 to -10


**Astah

I dont' agree with Revenge Nerf: 66kbe have alot of risk : you can block first hit and sidestep or Jg the second and it dont' absorb all first : you can easly do a simple A o B and Bull revenge doesnt' works....

**Cervantes
less advantage on 4Bbe

**Patroclos
66 b -2> to -12
1B - 0 to > -4 on block
+2 on 1k its' ok imho cause alot of chara can launch him on block

**Mitsu

Nerf
4b No track anymore
No 2 X Ce
6b8 32 to 28 its ok imho

Buff
Mist a+b > -3 to -1 or 0

**Natsu

less pushback on 66B when blocked

**Pirra =

-1k -15 > to -16

**Omega Pyrra

-No pusback on 236236 B so all chara can "touch " her when they block .
-4b : No more + on block > -2 or -3 cause she have B i 14

Later i will add other considerations

 

[setto-kun]

Tira:
Nerfs:
- GS 3A BE: Decrease damage by 10 pts (70 -> 60)
- GS 66B: Decrease damage by 5 pts (30 -> 25)
- GS 666B: Decrease damage by 10 pts (65 -> 55)
- 6A+B: Remove tracking at least to one side
Buffs:
- 3K: 0 on hit
- JS 2AB: confirmable on CH, still negative
- GS 22B: +4 on block
- Add clean hit property to some moves. I suggest 4K, JS 66AA, GS 44A

 

[Age_of_Truth]

snip

If they change Tira again I will have a nervous breakdown. GS 3A is good but only confirmable on CH I think, and very short range.

For me, silly things (in addition to Belial's list):

Cervy: aB too many good properties (damage, range, pushback, anti-step, anti-crouch, anti-jump, speed)

Viola: VS 6B+K combo into 3B too good for no risk.

Alpha: too much damage from FC 3A+B and 66B relative to risk

Mitsu: 6B8 too many good properties (damage, speed, range, pushback, -2 on block, guard burst)

Also I disagree on:

Xiba: 3B is great and he is annoying, but he seems balanced to me. His transitions already got nerfed, making them easier to deal with could make him too risky to use. He is high-risk high-reward.

Ezio: Does he really need nerfing?

Nightmare: his backstep and NS bA are really annoying, but I think nerfing these could really hurt the character. Again I see him as balanced.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

I think the game is pretty much fine as it is. I don't think Cervy needs any nerfs whatsoever except for 3B damage nerf (reduce damage by 5). Call me biased because I play him. And what exactly would nerfing the +frames on his 4B BE by 4 frames do exactly other than help two characters (yoshi and natsu)? aB nerf to -22 and pushback reduced? Its already - on hit and reasonably unsafe to many characters. Cervy has to make commital reads for everything, he dont have any BB or anything, closest thing he has is 3K which is small damage.

The only nerfs I can see that are reasonable:

Viola: Remove 44A BE cancel, combo does too much damage.

Mitsu: Make 4A more disadvantage on block if you dont go into MST. Mitsu has enough good pokes and tools, he don't need this ranged stepkiller to be this safe unless he commits to stance change.
At least 4B is a commitment, it can be JG on reaction. HOWEVER, 4B should not give wall combo. It gives him too much control near a wall. Thats the only nerf it needs.


Pyrrahs: 66A leaves you facing forward on hit. Sideturn along with its general safety and the fact that its a mid horizontal is too much. Leave frames and damage the same.

Yoshi: IMCF blockstun increased, but recovery increased as well. Increase stun duration so he still gets RCC 3B on CH if necessary. This change is to make it less spammable (easier to whiff punish). Safety on block should be the same.

Patroklos: 66B -5 or -6 instead of -2.... and WS A+B and WS KA don't combo into CE anymore.

Alpha Patroklos: I don't like the idea of making 33B -13. It just helps a select few characters again while it remains spammable against most of the cast. Just remove the pushback so you always get a mixup on him. Also revert the retarded 1B:B change and just reduce the damage or safety. Execution is not always an effective way to balance.
Alternatively you could leave 33B the same and just remove double JFT. Nerfing both is too much IMO.

Astaroth: 22B pushback reduction. Don't leave opponent in throw range or anything crazy, but the pushback right now is too crazy.

66K BE combo is too ridiculous. 70-80 damage max.




I'm not gonna say anything much about buffs, but fix all whiffs and glitches.

Feel free to tear me to shreds, probably should have just posted similar to Omega or not post at all.