Silencer
[09] Warrior
Mitsurugi
-2B+K B (full moon death / slash), add small amount of tracking to both sides
-2B+K B (full moon death / slash), add small amount of tracking to both sides
Balance Patch Discussion
- Thread starter Belial
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Xiba 3B is a terrific move. Its safe if no followup goes. Its K followup deal crazy damage as well as RMB B followup.
If you step it, you still have to be very quick, or you get hit by K. If you block it is just not favorable mixup for you. And he can just 3B,3B,3B 3B, backdash 3B to break your guard in no time. Even the best chars cannot have a good risk reward for it. This move is just BROKEN.
One of two fix to it is needed, it must be either made UNSAFE on block, so you can at least guess - if he does 3B or 3B~RMD you can punish. Or transition made slower so you can iFC both K and RMB followups.
Now to adress some NoFaceKiller stuff:
Mitsu 4B I dont know what you mean by "commitment", but 4B is actually more commiting to opponent if he wants to punish it. If you step, or dash, you cannot JG in time b/c game considers block press. So you have to step or dash w/o block. Or stay Guarding. Or 8wrunning. 4B is just super lame. It is safe, evades like no tomorrow, tracks 100%, deals most damage out of 4B-like moves, grants free wakeup on hit. And you think its only trouble is wallcombos? Really?
Astaroth 22B is not even an issue. you can step it you can JG it, its not a viable spacing tool. its seldom used as a wakeup tool except BE version when they're flashing. This looks like a totally minor nerf that doesnt make any sense to me.
Orverall it seems you have a completely different view on the game from most ppl here.
Btw added you to the list.
If you step it, you still have to be very quick, or you get hit by K. If you block it is just not favorable mixup for you. And he can just 3B,3B,3B 3B, backdash 3B to break your guard in no time. Even the best chars cannot have a good risk reward for it. This move is just BROKEN.
One of two fix to it is needed, it must be either made UNSAFE on block, so you can at least guess - if he does 3B or 3B~RMD you can punish. Or transition made slower so you can iFC both K and RMB followups.
Now to adress some NoFaceKiller stuff:
Mitsu 4B I dont know what you mean by "commitment", but 4B is actually more commiting to opponent if he wants to punish it. If you step, or dash, you cannot JG in time b/c game considers block press. So you have to step or dash w/o block. Or stay Guarding. Or 8wrunning. 4B is just super lame. It is safe, evades like no tomorrow, tracks 100%, deals most damage out of 4B-like moves, grants free wakeup on hit. And you think its only trouble is wallcombos? Really?
Astaroth 22B is not even an issue. you can step it you can JG it, its not a viable spacing tool. its seldom used as a wakeup tool except BE version when they're flashing. This looks like a totally minor nerf that doesnt make any sense to me.
Orverall it seems you have a completely different view on the game from most ppl here.
Btw added you to the list.
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
Xiba is one of the of characters I have a lot of experience against. His damage is crazy and I must say he causes me to rage a lot. However...
3B is really fast, really powerful, and reacting to the animation on its own is quite hard. But if you do see it, a vertical TC move will beat any attack he does after. He has to commit to his follow-up, meaning that if he does 3B K, he risks being crouched and launched, and if he goes straight into stance, he is completely vulnerable to any Vertical attack. His safest REM follow-up is REM B, which can be stepped, again for big punishment. So while I agree 3B is really strong, I also think that Xiba takes very big risks when using it. I think if you nerf this move, you risk making the character bad.
I go crazy when Xiba Guard Bursts me after only a few blocks and does over half my life for one BE. Honestly I have had many genuine rage moments. But this is the character.
Rikimaru
[08] Mercenary
The real problem is the damage, that are some combo that are just insane, for example the combo vs big character after 66[k], too much damage in my opinion. Another problem is in the wake up situation, there are a lot of setup where you are forced to block this move and the fact that it breaks the guard in 6 is too much. I think the character overall is really really good, maybe not as strong as other characters like Algol, Viola or Mitu, but really really good. I think nerfing the damage, guard bust a little, and 66k BE would be fair.
Algol have the same problem with the insane damage, CE have stupid damage and connects after a lot of moves ( and a lot of this moves are safe on block and kinda spammable like 66b ). A solution probably could be that bubble moves not gives him meter, if the damage will be nerfed but the combo will remain the same, he will have to do more moves to gain meter. The other solution could be simply nerfing the damage in a lot of his moves.
About Mitsu's 4b, this move is really broken in every aspect...
This. 100% this.
It sucks when you get hit by it, but if you play Alpha, risk/reward is NOT that bad. On block you can crouch into an immediate JF Twister (don't use 214) and if he does anything other than 3B~G, he gets launched for 72 damage. If he does 3B~G, then you get mixups.
Yeah its a bitch, but its manageable. Granted Alpha has a better time than most against it, but most characters still have answers, just less reward...
(I've done it practically vs. Gruntdude online, Percyinabox offline at one point and Malik Freaborne offline)
Also, regarding Astaroth:
Revenge bullrush needs its combo toning down. Otherwise, the big man is really well designed this time imo. He's a fucking titan with a giant axe. He should be terrifying when you're on the ground or blocking, haha.
Di_PL
[10] Knight
First of all, thank you for putting my name on the list. After asking Aeon players about their suggestions, I've decided to make a list of his possible Aeon buffs:
3A: smaller freeze on block (-14 > -12). This would make it still punishable by fast characters but would keep it safe in some matchups (no deadfist from Pyrrha, only A,A).
6B,B: force stand after the first attack on hit. Currently it's not a NC against crouched character, as the second attack whiffs.
1K: damage buff (18 > 22). It's quite a slow low (i22 makes it close to reactable) and punishable (-18) attack which on yellow health deals even less damage. Currently it's much worse than Pyrrha's and Patroklos' 1Ks.
44B,A,A: make it track after the first hit. This would make his combos consistent, as currently there are some sad tracking issues with it (Aeon switches to BT after the first hit).
Something extra:
B,B,B: switch it to an ordinary B,B (Lizardman's SCIV B,B would be a great change). Aeon just needs B,B, just like any other short/mid-ranged character. The current string is pretty much useless on a high level.
3A: smaller freeze on block (-14 > -12). This would make it still punishable by fast characters but would keep it safe in some matchups (no deadfist from Pyrrha, only A,A).
6B,B: force stand after the first attack on hit. Currently it's not a NC against crouched character, as the second attack whiffs.
1K: damage buff (18 > 22). It's quite a slow low (i22 makes it close to reactable) and punishable (-18) attack which on yellow health deals even less damage. Currently it's much worse than Pyrrha's and Patroklos' 1Ks.
44B,A,A: make it track after the first hit. This would make his combos consistent, as currently there are some sad tracking issues with it (Aeon switches to BT after the first hit).
Something extra:
B,B,B: switch it to an ordinary B,B (Lizardman's SCIV B,B would be a great change). Aeon just needs B,B, just like any other short/mid-ranged character. The current string is pretty much useless on a high level.
lolo
[11] Champion
Really, why people are complaining about Astaroth?, I only agree with revenge damage, not the revenge dmg per se, but the overall combo, 66K BE is less than 60 dmg if used to punish for instance, and is among the best Asta punishers, which is not something to say...
But sure, having 157 dmg combo out of it, is insane, other than that, I think is the way he has always been, heavy damage, slow stuff, tons of react able stuff, and for me, I'm missing some moves really bad, 2A+K and the pushback of 3B... Basically, 3B was a decent launcher with 3 or 4 charge levels, now it sux for the fat guy, with great pushback and great guard damage, now it doesn't pushback, it's very unsafe, and it doesn't have good damage, and yet NFK complains about 22B?, if he would have 2A+K, you wouldn't be worried about 22B on wake, belive me, he has very limited tools to force wakes this time, and 22B is the best, and not because is gonna damage you, but it will force you to wake up with guard damage...
Anyway, no argue on that, NFK is the only one complaining about that one, I also agree on Phyrra's 3B, that thing is spammable, decent damage for a safe launcher and better with CE, I'm not sure how many chars can punish that at mid range.
-Viola damage is wrong IMO, tough I'm still not an expert on Viola, she just seems wrong, she can deal as much damage as a heavy char, with the pressure of a... Well, not even Amy had that kind of pressure. Viola is the kind of character that will make people quit the game as she is now, is just that I haven't seen any top top player using her, I mean, what would happen if Keev really learns her or Woahhzz...
-Patroklos... 66B is stupid as everyone knows, I don't think it should be safe at all, it should -13 at least, so even the big guys can get at least K. The reward is so big for such low risk, that thing wins rounds, and lots of them.
He should recover as everyone else from whiffing a grab.
1K... why should it give advantage, is a cheap low, there aren't any cheap lows that gives advantage, not even Algol's 1K, those things doesn't exist anymore, those kind of lows died with Hwang, lol.
-Mitsu- He is ok, very strong as always, just open 4B to K punish, and 6b9 shouldn't be + on block, but you can keep it like that and nerf the damage, but by 15 points, is too good. And I wouldn't complain if 1A would be faster as in 4.
-Hilde's C2B combos, no need to explain, but let's not forget.
-Dampierre half bar combos, he lacks some basic stuff like a good anti step for instance, but he moves better than 90% of the cast, so evading is not a problem to him, and having a half bar whiff punishment is just not fair, I can imagine someone like Omega using him, forcing your ass to crouch and getting half bar combos... He already does that with Night, he needs 3 combos, now he would only need 2.
The JF kicks ain't as hard as other jfs, so that is not an argue, I have a 5 vids proving that someone who mains him, can get those 90% of the time. I know most people in Europe don't even know a thing about damp, same happened with SW chars (I know is different), but well, I'm just saying that thing is broken not asking or looking followers on this.
-Somehow Sieg is too strong, is like Nightmare, but with pokes, more pressure and a top notch CE, and he can be really safe if smart played, but I don't know what I would nerf to him, anyway, I'm glad he is strong, at least is not cheap like Patroklos.
-Algol's damage out of CEx2 is what I find really bad with him, other than that is really strong, top, but somehow it gets compensated by his lack of movement, is discouraging really, is like trying to win a reace with tractor vs a ferrari, he just doesn't move.
-Alpha, too much damage for such speed, that's it, he can be as safe and as fast as he wants, but he can't deal so much damage.
That's it for now...
But sure, having 157 dmg combo out of it, is insane, other than that, I think is the way he has always been, heavy damage, slow stuff, tons of react able stuff, and for me, I'm missing some moves really bad, 2A+K and the pushback of 3B... Basically, 3B was a decent launcher with 3 or 4 charge levels, now it sux for the fat guy, with great pushback and great guard damage, now it doesn't pushback, it's very unsafe, and it doesn't have good damage, and yet NFK complains about 22B?, if he would have 2A+K, you wouldn't be worried about 22B on wake, belive me, he has very limited tools to force wakes this time, and 22B is the best, and not because is gonna damage you, but it will force you to wake up with guard damage...
Anyway, no argue on that, NFK is the only one complaining about that one, I also agree on Phyrra's 3B, that thing is spammable, decent damage for a safe launcher and better with CE, I'm not sure how many chars can punish that at mid range.
-Viola damage is wrong IMO, tough I'm still not an expert on Viola, she just seems wrong, she can deal as much damage as a heavy char, with the pressure of a... Well, not even Amy had that kind of pressure. Viola is the kind of character that will make people quit the game as she is now, is just that I haven't seen any top top player using her, I mean, what would happen if Keev really learns her or Woahhzz...
-Patroklos... 66B is stupid as everyone knows, I don't think it should be safe at all, it should -13 at least, so even the big guys can get at least K. The reward is so big for such low risk, that thing wins rounds, and lots of them.
He should recover as everyone else from whiffing a grab.
1K... why should it give advantage, is a cheap low, there aren't any cheap lows that gives advantage, not even Algol's 1K, those things doesn't exist anymore, those kind of lows died with Hwang, lol.
-Mitsu- He is ok, very strong as always, just open 4B to K punish, and 6b9 shouldn't be + on block, but you can keep it like that and nerf the damage, but by 15 points, is too good. And I wouldn't complain if 1A would be faster as in 4.
-Hilde's C2B combos, no need to explain, but let's not forget.
-Dampierre half bar combos, he lacks some basic stuff like a good anti step for instance, but he moves better than 90% of the cast, so evading is not a problem to him, and having a half bar whiff punishment is just not fair, I can imagine someone like Omega using him, forcing your ass to crouch and getting half bar combos... He already does that with Night, he needs 3 combos, now he would only need 2.
The JF kicks ain't as hard as other jfs, so that is not an argue, I have a 5 vids proving that someone who mains him, can get those 90% of the time. I know most people in Europe don't even know a thing about damp, same happened with SW chars (I know is different), but well, I'm just saying that thing is broken not asking or looking followers on this.
-Somehow Sieg is too strong, is like Nightmare, but with pokes, more pressure and a top notch CE, and he can be really safe if smart played, but I don't know what I would nerf to him, anyway, I'm glad he is strong, at least is not cheap like Patroklos.
-Algol's damage out of CEx2 is what I find really bad with him, other than that is really strong, top, but somehow it gets compensated by his lack of movement, is discouraging really, is like trying to win a reace with tractor vs a ferrari, he just doesn't move.
-Alpha, too much damage for such speed, that's it, he can be as safe and as fast as he wants, but he can't deal so much damage.
That's it for now...
ChaosK
[13] Hero
There is nothing top notch about an i19-i24 CE for 93 dmg. Rather bad.
Fenro
[08] Mercenary
Raphael
The lack of good tracking moves that give reward leads to the following wishes
1K should track both sides instead of just left, giving him more options to deal with step, should stay at -16 on block
AA Should be Faster either i14 or i15
B+K (fix the invincibility so you cant be interupted out of this even after you successfully evaded the first vertical hit)
Bring back 22_88B 3B~prep Bb BE transition.
Also i agree with prep K, it needs to be fixed to track properly
The lack of good tracking moves that give reward leads to the following wishes
1K should track both sides instead of just left, giving him more options to deal with step, should stay at -16 on block
AA Should be Faster either i14 or i15
B+K (fix the invincibility so you cant be interupted out of this even after you successfully evaded the first vertical hit)
Bring back 22_88B 3B~prep Bb BE transition.
Also i agree with prep K, it needs to be fixed to track properly
AZYG4LYFE
Play FFRK
After some thought, I'd just say the following can be adjusted
- Make B!E! harder to do 1~2F link
- Scale the damage a bit for that combo alone
- Keep the same difficulty level but he'll have maybe 50 or so % of falling to PB the last successful kick so that his 4B at the end won't always be a guarantee for a finish
- Non JF and hard JF version, non JF B!E! 35dmg JF B!E! usual 55dmg, maybe lower clean hit rate to B as well
- Reduce chance of A+B failing, just a little
- 2K increase from 16 to 20 dmg
- 11KK, a small chance of HS trip like DevilJin should occur, it's already unsafe and can be punished even during his PB transition on hit, otherwise damage increase from 16,8 to, 16,14
- Bit more range from 4B
- 6A to catch step better
AZ
lolo
[11] Champion
Right, because you can punish that really bad right?, also, it doesn't reach far enough, and definitively can't be used in combos, yeah, it sux.
Seriously, I'm not saying is broken, is one of the best IMO if used as it should, but I'm tired to argue, I'm just saying what I see, when you play with the players I play regulary, you would understand.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
4B is not really a commitment to counter it, i can just stand there and JG it. why would i try to step it? It is lame, it forces you to be passive in one way or another, and i didn't say its the only problem. But the added control near a wall needs to go regardless. I think it's fine though if the pokes are to be nerfed, because they are not a commitment, especially 4A. Together they make pressuring mitsu almost impossible.
6b8 could use a nerf to frames too. more - on block.
Astaroth 22B is too good as wakeup tool imo, because even if you stand up and block it pushes you back. It's just my opinion.
Btw I like minor nerfs, its a better balancing philosophy, albeit more expensive one.
anyway its not a popularity contest, my views are my own and they probably arent changing soon
ChaosK
[13] Hero
Well it can be heavily punished (-25 to -18, no pushback) but i think you are referring to its pseudo safeness when used on long range, then it is quite safe against short ranged chars. The thing about his CE though is, outside of combos (where scaling hits it pretty hard), you will be only using it as a long range whiffpunish and that doesn't come up very often except against few other long range chars like Astaroth and NM. Considering that you do play Asta, i can understand your dislike for it though.
I just think i have to agree to sach's opinion, that its damage compared to its frames is a bit lacking. Imo there are just so many good CE's in this game, that the lacking fastness/damage alone is enough to make it overall one of the worser CE's. No disrespect to your opinion though.
malek
[10] Knight
I agree 100%. Most if not all character in this game have 75% damage combo.
Is this really ok with everyone ? You just won one mind game, and that's it ?
And,
Add the free Critical Gauge when the opponent has 2 rounds and that's Soul Calibur V.
A situation where Algol is 2 round to 1 meens he will have for sure 200% gauge for the 5th and final round. And as an opponent, you'll probably have to use some of your gauge to win the 4th round before to be able to go to this final 5th round. So, you'll end with 200% gauge vs 0% to 100% gauge. Any single combo from Algol will basically won this final round, with limited chance to come back for you (2 or 3 mind game to win to do so).
And what about Algol CE (I hit you, I won), Viola 44A(Infinite 44A NH until it hits, then hit confirm mass damage / RO), Mitsu 2K BE (= 2 Free Mix up + Wake up), AlphaP 44B+K BE, Throws, 2A CE, etc (Mass damage / RO out of anything in NH) and so on.
The game is first to 2 round, or else you'll be in a situation where you'll not be able to stop your opponent.
Is this really SoulCalibur ? Did this free 100% gauge REALLY NEEDED for the last round ?
Maxou
[11] Champion
THIS ! 100% This.
This 100% gauge is really not needed. Having 200% BE should be a commitment not to use BEs for at least 2 rounds, not a free "out-of-jail" card.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
I agree with a lot of things said, but this 100% gauge is not the problem
Both players get this free 100%. The problem originated from the fact some characters BE/CE are way better than others.
Mitsuguri BE enables his extremely powerful wakeup. You dont even have to use 2KB(BE), the fact you have the meter is what enables his game
Nuff said about Algol, true. However his CE is unique, so I think it should be much harder for him to deal damage w/o BE/CE, that to win rounds he will need to waste meter. Then, you will not be in such a dumb situation what Malek described.
Cervantes - overall his mid moves are very unsafe, but once he gets meter his mixup game become probably best in the game. Mid with + on guard, safe on wiff etc. Ridiculous throws.
ZWEI - once he gets his BE going a sucessful setup takes over 120+ AND resets.
Patrokolos - I think facing him last round with full gauge is basically the same as Algol :)
Viola - you know it.
That and some other characters BE play key role in winning rounds and comebacks. However some characters BE/CE is not as important (Omega Pyrrha, Pyrrha, Leixia, Voldo, Hilde, Dampierre, Aeon) or situational (Astaroth, Nightmare, Ivy, Natsu, Yoshi) or just are not as amazing as the top list (Maxi, Tira, Xiba, Siegfried, Raphael, Ezio).
So basically, some characters game get immensely stronger, once they get BE/CE meter. The problem is not the meter itself. Take it away and the disbalance would still persist, I think so.
The overall damage nerf - I fully agree, very much needed. However I dont think thats ever happening, same as CE meter gain nerf. The reasons have no connection to this topic, so I will not discuss them and ask that you dont either.
I will mention overall damage nerf in the next update.
Personally I'd love damage numbers and combos back to what they were in sc2.
Both players get this free 100%. The problem originated from the fact some characters BE/CE are way better than others.
Mitsuguri BE enables his extremely powerful wakeup. You dont even have to use 2KB(BE), the fact you have the meter is what enables his game
Nuff said about Algol, true. However his CE is unique, so I think it should be much harder for him to deal damage w/o BE/CE, that to win rounds he will need to waste meter. Then, you will not be in such a dumb situation what Malek described.
Cervantes - overall his mid moves are very unsafe, but once he gets meter his mixup game become probably best in the game. Mid with + on guard, safe on wiff etc. Ridiculous throws.
ZWEI - once he gets his BE going a sucessful setup takes over 120+ AND resets.
Patrokolos - I think facing him last round with full gauge is basically the same as Algol :)
Viola - you know it.
That and some other characters BE play key role in winning rounds and comebacks. However some characters BE/CE is not as important (Omega Pyrrha, Pyrrha, Leixia, Voldo, Hilde, Dampierre, Aeon) or situational (Astaroth, Nightmare, Ivy, Natsu, Yoshi) or just are not as amazing as the top list (Maxi, Tira, Xiba, Siegfried, Raphael, Ezio).
So basically, some characters game get immensely stronger, once they get BE/CE meter. The problem is not the meter itself. Take it away and the disbalance would still persist, I think so.
The overall damage nerf - I fully agree, very much needed. However I dont think thats ever happening, same as CE meter gain nerf. The reasons have no connection to this topic, so I will not discuss them and ask that you dont either.
I will mention overall damage nerf in the next update.
Personally I'd love damage numbers and combos back to what they were in sc2.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
I always wondered, instead of an overall damage nerf, wouldn't it be much easier to just raise all chars health?
Say from 240->300? I know it sounds weird and 240 is an established number but it would solve the problem without much effort.
ShinJin
[09] Warrior
3B -15 wut?, really? with what reasoning?, it launches at the tip? half the cast can take 50% of your life from that range with safe moves, i really dont see his 3B being that good.
aB is already -18, it doesn't need anymore, what it does need it longer stun on both chracters to give you more time to punish it. other then that -18 for that move is fine.
as for astaroth, 10 damage off 22B~BE would reduce it to wall combo status only as it already does 10 damage less.
mid screen follow ups would be 66B which would end up doing less damage then if you just did 22B without the BE.
and with 66K~BE astaroth also takes damage from your move, so the cost to your own life is quite large (30 damage or more). the move is also very unsafe and easy to JG so for how unsafe it is i think the damage is fine.
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