Balance Patch Discussion

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hey gusy. I re-opened this thread for critique on how it was held, since some people were angry. I do not delete offtopic now so you see its impossible to pick stuff you post. If you want me to keep an eye on your ideas just in case (although vote is going on already) post it like Force-Destruct did, so I can easily distinguish those from random walls of text.
 
To clarify:

If anyone has things things that said person wanted to say BALANCE-WISE, it would be best to post is as a LIST or Spoiler Tag so it makes it easier for Belial or anyone else to figure out what could be a reasonable change or not.

Use my Ezio Post as an example (use COLOR if necessary)
 
Its unlikely my post will be taken seriously, or even regarded beyond minute concern and since I'm not on the list, I can't really comment on any of the suggested changes for Leixia. Suffice to say, I disagree with most of them for various reasons which I can't comment on because of the rules.

A fundamental flaw with Leixia's game is that she's highly interruptible to the point where prepping any sort of mind game or pressure yields eating highly damaging punishers. She has moves that are GI-able on counter hit, and moves that are interruptible on hit. Due to push back and lack of range, highly punishable attacks from a number of characters are virtually safe against her. Her main way of pressuring and poking relies heavily on frame traps which can be defeated simply by guarding or stepping. Her best guard breaking options are easily steppable, unsafe (or major disadvantage on block), or are interruptible. Not to mention just guarded. Leixia's while standing/rising game is defeated easily by 2A/1K/2K even while on frame advantage. Her damage is on the low end, yet for her 'successful' play she has to play at negative frames constantly to succeed. Leixia may be safe, but she plays at medium-to-high risk for little reward.

Some notes:
11AA - Both hits are low. First hit is -4 on hit. Second hit is interruptible, GI-able and steppable on hit. Can guard cancel the second hit. Invisible low. First hit -14 on block. 14 damage on the first hit. 34 damage on the second hit. Not a combo.

22kAAB_K - Natural combo. B variant does 46 damage, hits low. K variant does 54 damage hits mid. Both the B variant and the K variant are interruptible on block. -14 on block

22K - Low. -16 on block. +0 on hit. 28 frame impact. 24 damage.

3K - 14 frame impact, high, 14 damage. +5 on hit, -5 on block

6KK - 14 frame impact, midx2, 34 damage, TC. +8 on hit. -16 on block.

BB - 14 frame impact, midx2, 28 damage. +4 on hit, -6 on block. Same range as 3K and 6KK.

AA BE - 11 frame impact, not a combo, GI-able on last hit on normal and counter hit. 0 on guard.

AA BE K - 11 frame impact, not a combo, interruptible on last hit, GI-able on last hit. Both can be done on normal or counter hit. +11 on guard.

aB Feints - 44AB, 4A+BB, 6BaB. Can step on first hit, or blocked first then step second. Not a combo. For 4A+B and 6BaB can interrupt after blocking the first hit with 14-16 frame punishers (236Bs, etc.) Can interrupt/GI/step on hit from 4A+B variant. +1 on block. 20 damage, 40 damage (if both hits connect), 34 damage (if both hits connect) respectively. Impact frames are 40+, 25, and 13 respectively. All have TC frames during feint frames. BE combo-able Combo-able on hit. Recovers crouching.


The above moves have the more apparent issues the Leixia suffers from. Whereas 3K, BB and 6KK can be inter-changed for punishing and two of which offer less substantial risk and similar damage. While the AA BE is used exclusively in 1A and 44(A) combos. 44(A) is more reliable, though impacts at 41 frames. 1A is less reliable due to range issues/character issues. AA BE K seems primarily for frame traps and resets. The last hit, however, impacts at 20+ frames, making easy to interrupt. Using the AA BE in combos easily leads to 90 damage for half a bar of meter. It, however, only combos after 44(A) and 1A ch.

There are meterless combos for about 70 damage after 44(A) and 1A ch. These are AAB and 6BA > 6KK. Due to range and character issues, 6BA may not always connect. In particular, the A of 6BA has a throw that activates on counter hit. However, due to damage, it may not. Also due to an issue with the most recent patch, this combo no longer knocks down like it did before when 6KK connected. Thus AAB for 50 damage works best post 44(A) and 1A ch.

Successful aB feints lead to 70 damage combos for half a bar of meter. Or 80-ish damage for 1.5 bars of meter. Or about 40 damage using no meter.


Some suggested fixes:
Leixia's damage might be low, but when able to connect to her main combos with AA BE, damage is greatly improved. Improving the speed of 1A and the range reliability may facilitate better damage without the need of boosting her other moves. Allowing 6BA's throw hit on normal counter hit of 6B could further improve her options.

11A is a terrible invisible low. Conferring little damage, negative on hit, and an interruptible follow-up on hit. Improving the frames on hit might make it more useful for pressure.

There's no real block stun on Leixia's aB feints to really force opponents to be wary of these moves. Its one thing for them to be easy to JG, but to make them steppable and interruptible makes them highly risky for little gain. It is a concern that they destroy guards rather easily. Though that can be easily remedied by reducing the guard damage they do and improving the lead-ins into them.

22K confers less reward on normal hit for the same speed of many other lows that are just as 'safe' or just as fast. Giving some frame advantage may not be the best idea, however. Reducing the knock back on the move does allow Leixia some level of pressure giving her speedy attacks. The current version simply pushes out too far.

None of Leixia's guard breaks are threatening. Largely because they're derived from fakes and obvious mix-ups. They can all be stepped, and post-guard break mix-ups are too few to really threaten players. One could probably make them faster, or at the very least, confer a greater frame advantage than +8. Or one could make them damage the guard meter better.

Other things that could work to improve Leixia would be to fix some weird frame inconsistencies like 3A and 3AA. 3A is -10 on block and recovers crouching. 3AA is -8 on block and recovers standing. So that Leixia players can have some actual mix-up opportunities by halting certain strings.
 
don't forget that if Leixia GIs the enemy is pushed back too far to do much of anything like launchers or any high damaging moves unless the opponent's back is to a wall.
 
Alpha Patroklos: JFT should not hit grounded. It's already a superb move and even without the ability to hit grounded it can still do very much. It's just too good.

Hilde: C2B G infinite...

Mitsurugi: Moderately reduce tracking on 4B.

Siegfried: Remove pushback from 2K on hit.

Tira: Make CE an attack throw.

Viola: SET back throw infinite...yep.
 
2nd page ended, pls keep discussion civil. You want to figure out the best aPat - go PM pls.

Astaroth:
It seems that suggested nerfs are good.
- 22_88B(BE): decrease damage by 10 pts. This will also slightly nerf damage off 66k(BE)
I think it would be good to decrease damage on 2_8B+G by 10 pts also. That would remove ridiculous damage off 22B from sidestep.
66K(BE) Everyone seem to agree need a nerf.
Sacharja suggest CE made AT(asta and Ivy). CE can be ducked if you anticipate it with reaction. I tested that. Yes, very hard, but at lower level - let it stay as a great comeback tool IMO.

66K(BE) - No.

It's still -10 with meter. can be easily JG'd, still linear. You might as well take away the 66[K] combo since you disagree with the damage of the BE.

give me + frames on block to make that a feasable nerf.
 
I am curious about the logic of making barely unsafe moves into slightly more unsafe, such as from -12 to -14. These nerf suggestions are probably somewhat considered, but again turn into buffs for characters that excel with punishment based gameplay (which are generally not considered low/mid tier characters).

I don't see how changes like those would help the low tiers much so therefore I have little comment on these changes (while the lower tiers can probably get 4-5 buffs and the low mid guys can get 1-3 buffs). I understand that there needs to be a justified crackdown on no-brainer moves with absurd risk/reward though, so the nerfs to the top tiers are probably focused on top tier vs top tier matchups. However, due to human nature that we can clearly see in these 18 pages, nerfs should only be implemented on absurdly and undeniably strong moves or people'll get side tracked and feel their character is unfairly persecuted.
 
First, let me say that I am a mid-level player, and I don't feel like my opnions will be shat on, or ruled out simply because of that. Obviously, they will be contested, and I am perfectly fine with that. But I don't feel like I'm unwelcome in this discussion. I want to thank Belial for his efforts. Even though a lot of people disagree with the way he's doing things, I think it's great that he IS doing something.

Even I disagree with the way the big poll came out. I remember when the poll started, he wanted to focus on the stupid stuff. I took that to mean the stupid good stuff, and the stupid bad stuff. So I voted in the thread accordingly. I think SCV is very close to being extremely well balanced. The outliers are a real problem, though. When EVO rolls around, I think Mitsurugi, Cervantes, and Viola will dominate in terms of character choice (and likely success, too), and we'll hardly see any of Raphael, ZWEI, and Leixia.

Productive discussion incoming.

In terms of the top characters and the bottom characters, I think the top ones are Mitsu, Viola, and Cervantes. Seriously, I would rather fight APat than any of those three. I feel like APat actually has to work for his damage, and he has actual weaknesses that I can take advantage of.

Mitsu, on the other hand, has damage fall into his lap. All of his moves are stupidly safe and stupidly damaging. He frame traps as well as Leixia and Viola! And if for any reason he ends up at disadvantage, he can use 4B to punish you for using your advantage. And not to mention the tracking. Mitsu is bullshit. Cervantes, I think is just barely good enough to be bullshit. It's the speed and the reward, mostly.

And then Viola. I know this guy, Sluch. He's a local guy. I see him almost every time I go up to Arcade Legacy, be it for fight nights, ranbats, whatever. He's a Viola player. He's been a Viola player since 1.01, and he's been a dominant force since then. I remember the first ranbats we had at Arcade Legacy this year. Grand finals, it was Sluch's Viola, in the loser's bracket, against Rekano's Maxi, in the winner's bracket. Shitty matchup, huh? Sluch reset the bracket and won. Back in 1.01, I didn't disagree with the notion of giving Viola more damage, but when 1.02 rolled around, they gave her *way too much*. She only needed a little bit so that she could capitalize on those meterless situations better, and get a little more punch for her meter. And then the 6B+K tech emerged, and she became brainless. All she would need to do is 6B+K into whatever she wants. Are there holes in this? I'm sure there are, but I don't want to look for them! If I try to find a hole and I guess wrong, I'm going to eat shitloads of damage and give her shitloads of meter. The 6B+K pressure is exacerbated by the amount of damage she now does. So those are her two big problems, I think.

As for the low characters, I'm mostly in consensus with Raphael, ZWEI, and Leixia. I don't fight against Raph and ZWEI often enough to say why they're weak, and others have expressed it better than I likely could. I agree with the sentiment of Raph's excessive linearity, and ZWEI in general just seems really easy to deal with as long as you block and be patient. But at least they both do damage.

I think damage is the one thing keeping Leixia out of mid tier. I was discussing this on my profile page with a few people. She has speed, safety, and evasion, and outranges many characters as fast as her. She's pretty versatile, yeah. So she should be pretty strong, but her dramatic damage deficiency overcompensates for her strengths, especially in a game where characters do so much damage. Viola doesn't necessarily need a great deal of damage because she has the tools to lock you in, and force you to deal with her offense. She makes chances for herself to get hits that she can convert into damage with her meter. Leixia, however, doesn't have that. She has great tools, sure. But she still has to make reads and guesses like every character in the cast that isn't named Viola. And everyone else gets far more off a good guess than she does. That problem's exacerbated by her low ability to convert hits into greater damage. Many characters' useful moves can be enhanced by BEs, or can combo into BEs. The only way Leixia can combo into BE is CH 8B+K, 2B+K, 44[A], and CH 1A, which are all more difficult to connect than everyone else's options for comboing into BE. I am fine with Leixia doing less damage than the rest of the cast; her playstyle lends well to this. But right now, the difference is too great.

I also agree that in 1.01, WS B BE was stupid. It held me back from improving for a long time because it fixed so many problems for me. It did my evasion, did my damage, and even did my taxes. But I also think it was overnerfed. I think a graceful solution to make it useful again would be to restore its immediate evasiveness, then reverse the current scaling model we have now. If you dodge a move, you get bad damage. If you hit it raw, you get good damage. That way, you don't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Are there holes in this? I'm sure there are, but I don't want to look for them!
So you're saying even though there's a Viola player in your area who keeps dominating, you are too lazy to boot up the practice mode to find some way to deal with 6b+k and instead just keep whining and waiting for a patch that most likely will not happen?

Are you serious? I'm sorry but that is absolutely laughable.
 
All she would need to do is 6B+K into whatever she wants. Are there holes in this? I'm sure there are, but I don't want to look for them! If I try to find a hole and I guess wrong, I'm going to eat shitloads of damage and give her shitloads of meter. The 6B+K pressure is exacerbated by the amount of damage she now does. So those are her two big problems, I think.

Viola doesn't necessarily need a great deal of damage because she has the tools to lock you in, and force you to deal with her offense. She makes chances for herself to get hits that she can convert into damage with her meter. She has great tools, sure. But she still has to make reads and guesses like every character in the cast that isn't named Viola.

I think you overestimate how good Viola's set ups are. They are certainly powerful, especially to one who doesnt know how to deal with them, but you make it sound like she's an unblockable train of destruction. There are ways to get around her 6B+K set ups or at least alleviate their effectiveness. Simply rolling backwards goes a long way in getting around her attacks, as do attacks that move your character forward and auto techs. Her set ups can certainly feel overwhelming but they dont lock you down to the point where you have no options, she has a couple that will force you to take a guess but these are usually off of a specific knockdown that deals moderately less damage than her highest damaging combo finisher. But if you'll take the time to learn ways around her set ups you'll see that there are plenty of ways around it.
 
So you're saying even though there's a Viola player in your area who keeps dominating, you are too lazy to boot up the practice mode to find some way to deal with 6b+k and instead just keep whining and waiting for a patch that most likely will not happen?

Are you serious? I'm sorry but that is absolutely laughable.
No, that's not what I'm saying. When I said "I don't want to", I wasn't referring to some sort of entitlement issue where things should just be spoonfed to me via nerfs. Honestly, I worded that quite badly, and that is my bad. I was referring to the huge risk incurred in ceasing defense during actual gameplay, during actual matches, to try and find a hole. And since 6B+K setups are extremely solid and lead right back into 6B+K, chances are that more often than not, when I break defense to try and retaliate, I'm going to get hit and I'm going to eat a shit ton of damage and give her a shit ton of meter.

I could indeed go into training mode and look for setups, but it's way more than you're making it out to be. 6B+K is not one move that I set Viola to do in training mode, and then start blocking it and finding punishes. 6B+K is used in conjunction with a great deal of her moveset. So I have to think up every possible thing she could do with 6B+K as backup, and figure out what to do against every single thing. That's not 15 minutes in the lab; that's *at least* two hours. I have a job, go to school when it's not summer, spend time with my family, and I have a social life aside from the arcade. I play this game for fun. I'm not going to spend two hours of what little free time I have to play this game trying to find holes in a broken-ass move of a broken-ass character. Calling that lazy would be inconsiderate; I call it using my leisure time wisely.

That said, there are smarter things I can do than trying to figure out all of those setups in training mode. It's a good thing you pointed out the dominant Viola player in my area, even though you kind of twisted it up a bit. I can ask him for help myself the next time I see him at the arcade, which I have been meaning to do for a while.

Please don't twist my words in order to jump to a bad conclusion about me. I'm trying to assume the best of everyone among all the discord in this thread; I would ask you do the same for me.
 
Simply rolling backwards goes a long way in getting around her attacks, as do attacks that move your character forward and auto techs.
I hadn't thought of that; I'll try that next time I fight against Viola, although I still have no idea what I can do when I'm not knocked down. In any case, thanks for the tip.
 
I hadn't thought of that; I'll try that next time I fight against Viola, although I still have no idea what I can do when I'm not knocked down. In any case, thanks for the tip.

You know when she's standing in front of you or standing pretty close to you and does 6B+K? If the person you're playing blocks right away (as most viola's do after a 6B+K) you can grab him and regardless if it fully connects the attack will stop, since she takes chip damage for breaking throws. Then if he catches onto your grabbing he will either be ducking or attacking to avoid it, so you can go into an attack of your own to hit him out of crouch, or out of the attack since there is recovery on the 6B+K.
 
it's way more than you're making it out to be. 6B+K is not one move that I set Viola to do in training mode, and then start blocking it and finding punishes. 6B+K is used in conjunction with a great deal of her moveset. So I have to think up every possible thing she could do with 6B+K as backup, and figure out what to do against every single thing.
I know. That's what I've been doing lately and it's helped nicely.

Please don't twist my words
I'm not.
 
I think he can be made pretty good with a few frame and damage adjustments, and some changed properties on some moves. Also if you dont think he can be made top tier with buffs alone it's as simple as giving him some absurdly powerful changes.

Asking for a complete overhaul is a bit much though and likely isnt possible with just a patch. But giving him a nice helping of buffs would certainly go further in making him better than he is now.
no you can t .....
Or at least its possible if the compoletely change character philosophy....
They wanted to nerf ALL character strong points from scIV, while also changes in opponent frames and range nerfed also his poking, and punishing tools.

They did his stance completely wrong....

Too many things there were in patch 1.01 were so wrong that made me thinks raph is actually an unfinished character....

SO they should finish the work
Unfortunately all comments and buff requested won t change much the fact raph need a new gameplay that could be done only changing his philosophy even if that will require just few frames and property tweaking, the work in balancing his gameplay has to be rethought completely.


Its possible since they already did in 1.02 (despite being weaker raph is much better in term of gameplay after 1.02...).
 
SO they should finish the work
Unfortunately all comments and buff requested won t change much the fact raph need a new gameplay that could be done only changing his philosophy even if that will require just few frames and property tweaking, the work in balancing his gameplay has to be rethought completely.

Well this is from a completely different perspective. His gameplay feels unfinished and rushed, probably because it is, but i think he can be better off purely strength wise with some buffs. I'm not talking about making him the character he should have been, just making him powerful with what he's got now. Thing is we dont know how much work it entails to "complete" him. If he's actually missing attacks and animations i dont think we'll see a fully fledged Raph until we get a re-release or the next game.
 
Algol appears even more rushed than most other characters. Chair Glitch, CE glitch, QI Flip A+B B BE glitch on the ring edge. 4B+K (the back-step attack throw) glitch on an opponent attempting to ukemi.

These are just to name a few.
 
just no....
Raph has huge whiffing issue on normal combo on both aligned character and off axis.
They also "forgot" to put many stuns just so they made his past game signature moves useless and did tons of mistakes that proves they probably didn t even test the character but only wrote his moveset on a sheet of paper without even checking how the character worked in past games (probably a different team)...infact most his moves have issues and his strategy design is completely wrong
 
just no....
Raph has huge whiffing issue on normal combo on both aligned character and off axis.
They also "forgot" to put many stuns just so they made his past game signature moves useless and did tons of mistakes that proves they probably didn t even test the character but only wrote his moveset on a sheet of paper without even checking how the character worked in past games (probably a different team)...infact most his moves have issues and his strategy design is completely wrong

This still doesnt sound too insurmountable to me. They can just add stun properties to some moves, allow him to get a good combo off of it, improve the frames of some moves. Really all that's getting in the way is his whiffing issues and how he feels like an incomplete character. And right now i'm not worried about how he feels, just how good he is, and i think with some added stuns, better combo potential, and some improved moves he can be more than satisfactory. The only thing that bothers me are his whiffing problems, cause Siegfried has a lot as well and PS must know about them, yet they still exist 2 patches later. Either they really dont know about them or they're currently unable to fix them.
 
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