best ground game?

Nukleurfire said:
I'm also only talking about ground game. I'm merely saying that the fact that Rock's focus is his groundgame isn't evidence to support that it is superior to other ground games. For example, a McDonald meal is comprised of a burger, drink, and fries- but the focus of the meals is the burger. This is not evidence that McDonald has the best burgers.
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Ah, ok. I misread your original post a bit. You said that he was bottom tier so I thought that that was the point of your post.

I think Rock would be top (in terms of oki) if he was allowed one unbreakable ground throw after every knockdown, then he'd be a beast (in terms of oki).
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The thing about his ground grabs is, like hotnikkelz mentioned, Rock still has a pretty significant advantage after an opponent breaks a ground throw so he still has the option to rush in and keep applying pressure.
 
microgamer said:
Ah, ok. I misread your original post a bit. You said that he was bottom tier so I thought that that was the point of your post.

The thing about his ground grabs is, like hotnikkelz mentioned, Rock still has a pretty significant advantage after an opponent breaks a ground throw so he still has the option to rush in and keep applying pressure.
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I meant he's bottom to support his best aspect not being very good. About the broken throws, I didn't know that. What kind of followups do people usually use? After a broken ground throw I usually curse and whiff the followup I was buffering in excitement. (Exaggeration.) (Kind of.)
 
I'm pretty sure that after a ground throw break, dash > 6K is uninterruptable. I think doing a simple BB (breaks gauge in 7.5 hits) is a good followup in this situation too. But yeah, once you get the opponent to realize the disadvantage they're in, you can start doing other things like dash > throw or things like 2B+K, JF PT...basically the regular Rock wakeup routine.
 
I'm not really sure why Asta is regarded as having good oki, this isn't SC3 anymore. 4 is generally side rollable and doesn't give a particularly good mixup because they are well out of grab range after blocking it. all his mids that actually do damage are slow and can be blocked on reaction (22B) and his lows either suck and/or don't hit the ground at all. His Oki is pretty good from his A command grab but that's about it. Sieg's isn't that great either.

A big part of what makes a character have good oki in this game is whether or not they have good anti sideroll moves. Sideroll is generally very low risk and many characters lack a strong way to deal with it.

Rock, NM, and Amy are the best at the moment. Vader has good oki as well but not quite as good as those 3 I think.
 
Vader gets 80-90 damage on a force pickup, that pretty much means someone always has to tech right away which leads into other things... don't underestimate the power of the dark side.
 
Vader's 2[A+B] is really good too because it's neutral frames on block and forces the opponent in FC, not to mention it combos into force pickups against people who try to roll/stay grounded.
 
i'd say NM, he has all the tools for a grounded situation

if the opponent techs, they risked being relaunch (assuming its a tech trap situation), if not they still eat garunteed damage, if they still stay grounded you get more damage from 44BB, or you can kick them out of the ring with GS KK, if they start rolling, you have 1[A] to apply pressure, or FC B+G/A+G to pick them up (although this doesn't give you advantage anymore), or if they are close enough it's a free 2A+B and force them to get up with a charged 3B. Most his B moves hit grounded, so hitting ground targets isn't any issue for him.
 
The only problem with Vader's oki is if they can react to 4A+B it takes a dive. It's pretty fast so it's not the easiest thing in the world but it's doable.
 
Only characters I hesitate to stay OTG against are Rock, NM, Asta, and Vader. I don't mind risking against Amy roachiness.
 
why does asta make you hesitate to stay otg? easy to block 22B on reflex, and his 2A+K is problematic in that it won't always beat play dead. for example, 2A+K after A command grab will do zero damage vs play dead, and only connects vs rolling. 2B+K is probably his best one so I'm guessing that's the one giving you issues?
 
Tiamat said:
why does asta make you hesitate to stay otg? easy to block 22B on reflex, and his 2A+K is problematic in that it won't always beat play dead. for example, 2A+K after A command grab will do zero damage vs play dead, and only connects vs rolling. 2B+K is probably his best one so I'm guessing that's the one giving you issues?
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2B+K is definitely annoying but I usually react to that. It's 2A+K mostly yea. Had no idea it didn't work after that. Good stuff Tiagol.
 
astas 1B is also decent on grounded. It's possible to sight see, but it's on the harder side and it will catch sideroll. 2A works that way too but the damage is insignificant. 3B is also somewhat notable for being around 1B's speed, hitting grounded and being safe on block.

Asta's head side throw is not that terrible, even though opponent is standing when they break they are at more disadvantage than if they took it which can cover running in safely.

2B+K can be side-rolled one way and whether you stand to block it or try to crouch and get hit he is looking at 25/25/25/25 from the grabs that have a lot of damage shaved off. also the standing throws trade with i13 on block of 2B+K. So that one overall is not a winner. whether Astas ground game is good depends on what attack you knocked down with and for most of them opponent has too many options. Overall it seems better than most, but I don't think it's in contention for the best.
 
hteng said:
i'd say NM, he has all the tools for a grounded situation

if the opponent techs, they risked being relaunch (assuming its a tech trap situation), if not they still eat garunteed damage, if they still stay grounded you get more damage from 44BB, or you can kick them out of the ring with GS KK, if they start rolling, you have 1[A] to apply pressure, or FC B+G/A+G to pick them up (although this doesn't give you advantage anymore), or if they are close enough it's a free 2A+B and force them to get up with a charged 3B. Most his B moves hit grounded, so hitting ground targets isn't any issue for him.
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i think this is the thread closer
 
Asta's ground game is like this.
63214A+G is just like any combo that ends with 28B+G air grab.
Here Asta can use 1A or 2B+K, 22B or 22K if they don't get up.
If they roll he can just chase them on the ground.
If they get up they die..simple enough.

After 4[A+B]
2A+K will hit if they don't get up, so will 1A and 2B+K
If they get up well you know.

1G and 4G gi's
You get up to early a crouch grab will catch you.
If you don't get up, same options.

4A+B not fully charged, opponent gets up to early will have to break a crouch grab.

A+G Asta's normal throw and 2B+K A+G
2A can reach the opponent so watch out.

66K they get up too early they have to deal with 3 or 2A or 1A
If they stay grounded 22B

After 4 or 4B ch. crouch grab is a tech trap, or head grab if they stay grounded.

44B
66K tech trap, or head grab if they stay grounded.

A+G air grab
Crouch grab is a tech trap, or head grabs when they stay grounded.

63214B+G
66[K] techtrap this does a ton of damage if it hits. You can follow it up with 22B or 28B+G 140ish
Or 22K into 22B when they stay grounded.

44A or 4A CH close to a wall( no wallsplat)
Crouch grabs are tech traps.

Other stuff.
3B, 6AB and body splash on CH give you a free 2A+K, you can mix up 22B or 22K but this is something I haven't really looked at. I know depending on how the opponent rolls 22_88B can catch you after 3B and 6AB.

4B+KB
22_88B combo side roll dependent actually but you don't want to get up, A+G combo for ringouts or techtrap options.
214A techtrap!!!
A+K grounded.
And 22K into 22B near walls on grounded.
 
There isn't really any actually punishment for laying on the ground vs Astaroth. If Astaroth attempts 2B+K or 2A+K, you can see them and stand back up on reaction. As long as the person fighting the Astaroth knows about Astaroth's tech traps, the can generally avoid most of Astaroth's "ground game". Online, however, is a completely different story.
 
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