Bonus Characters and Hitboxes- Proof?

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IdleMind

IdleMind

BANNED FOREVER
Alot of people cite strange hitboxes, whiffing issues, combos that don't work, ect as reasons for having Bonus characters banned in tournaments.

I want to ask, basically, where is the proof of this, or is this a widespread case of hearsay?

So, if you can provide consistant, repeatable examples, please make a video or post the situation so we all can test it out so we can end this debate ONCE AND FOR ALL.

I'll ask nicely first- please keep this thread on track. I don't need any useless posts about "hur hur bans and debate". There is a direct query happening here.

Off-topic posts WILL be deleted and you WILL recieve infractions. Consider this a fair warning.

-Idle
 
I just had Sophie's 6B whiff on elf chick, but whiffing issues are not limited to just bonus characters. Plus I doubt you could really test for stuff like that because of how random it is.

But as far as definitive proof to the point where every bonus character needs to be blanket banned from tournaments, I haven't seen it. Plus who is actually going to go through the process of testing this out and putting it on video? And they are not hurting the community. So before this thread turns into a bitchfest, just allow them and move on.
 
I can go through it tomorrow and record some stuff if you want. I have that kind of time.

Not that I know exactly what to test, I never thought there was a major whiffing problem. If anyone has a concrete example, I'll record it.
 
malice said:
i just had sophie's 6b whiff on elf chick, but whiffing issues are not limited to just bonus characters. Plus i doubt you could really test for stuff like that because of how random it is.

But as far as definitive proof to the point where every bonus character needs to be blanket banned from tournaments, i haven't seen it. Plus who is actually going to go through the process of testing this out and putting it on video? And they are not hurting the community. So before this thread turns into a bitchfest, just allow them and move on.
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Thaaaaaank Yooooooou
 
Well, the burden of proof is on the people making the claims. If they are gonna make the claims, then they need to provide evidence. Thats all there is to it.

-Idle
 
I know maxis's RC B will hit astaroth without fail. But there is the OCASSIONAL whiff of it against asholette. It will jump over her head like it does against amy. I cant figure out the exact situation of how it happens, but out of 100 times against asholette, it will whiff probablly 15 times.

In that case, I dont think thats a "hitbox" problem due to bonus character status. Its just the actual size of the character. That particular move can be "character specific". dont know that I would call it a "bonus character" problem


HRD
 
Before you get started on this, let me just say... Bonus characters are pretty much banned everywhere, and they always have been. The only place they were really unbanned was in NJ. In general, they are banned because they are essentially custom characters... and since custom characters are banned, so are the bonus characters... the random whiffing issues are just icing on the cake, and I'm sure they happen with custom characters as well. I unbanned bonus characters from my tournaments when I unbanned Algol. I could not realisticly give a valid reason for ANY bans in this game, when we had characters like Hilde disrupting the balance... so I unbanned EVERYTHING.

Now that we have decided to ban Hilde in NJ, I also re-instated the former bans: Algol, bonus characters, and custom characters. Why are you bitching about them being banned from my tournaments, when they are banned EVERYWHERE. They don't add ANYTHING to the game... they don't have unique movesets and they are not original characters... so why bother disrupting the delicate game we already have? You can already use Amy (who is fucking top!), you don't need to use Scheherezade. No matter the discussion that happens here, I will NOT unban them at my tournaments unless we decide to unban Hilde and Algol as well.
 
Bonus characters aren't banned in Norcal, Madison, Toronto or Austin, the places that are still active.
They are banned in Jersey, New England and UMBC. That hardly constitutes everywhere, or even a majority.

It's your tournament, thus your rules and I respect that; but I find your rationale to be lacking is all I am saying.

Hilde/Algol were banned for the appearance of brokeness, not the actuality of it all, so tying in Bonus characters with them makes no sense because at what point did bonus characters being used make people look at the game and think "thats broke, fuck this game"?

-Idle
 
Well IdleMind, they WERE banned everywhere, until I unbanned everything in NJ... I'm restoring the bans now, its that simple.
For that matter, nowhere else has banned Hilde either... so you're argument is just as pointless and meaningless as mne.

There is no reason for both Amy and Scheherezade to be in the game. We don't know exactly what kinds of issues custom/bonus characters bring to the game; however, we do know that they can, and have often been shown to have serious hitbox discrepencies. So why complicate the game with Scheherezade and Shura? As I said before, they bring nothing to the game, however, they bring a risk of brokeness. So just ban them, and we lose nothing... after all, Amy and Cervantes are still playable.
 
The risk but not proven issue of brokeness vs the exclusion of some peoples preference in character appearance is whats happening here.

We made the choice to exclude Hilde/Algol for what we percieved as the greater good because we thought within our respective scenes it wouldn't be an issue and it would bring back more people than it lost. We can only LOSE players by banning bonus characters without some kind of PROOF that they disrupt the game in some fashion.

Also, this whole issue is moot if we see proof for differences, which is what I'm asking for. Then when people say "why?" we can tell them why.

-Idle
 
Jaxel said:
blahblahblah
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So, while Hilde and Algol weren't banned, you couldn't give a valid reason. Now that both are banned, which are the real valid reasons? "'Cause they're essentially custom charactersyaddayadda" is such a weak argument. The Bonus Characters are present in all versions of SCIV, without any differences at all. They're acessible to everyone - to study moves proprieties, whiffing issues (if they're significant) and whanot at Training. What's the deal anyway?

Banning them just because they're some anime-esque products who "don't fit the game" isn't a valid reason. And even if Shura and Scheherazade are proven to be "game-breakers" (lol), how about Ashlotte, Kamikirimusi and Angol Fear? Is really fair, banning them as a whole, if three of them aren't broken?

Seriously, SCIV community is a joke. :( - so much whining.
 
IdleMind, you're missing my point... I dont care if there is proof, or a lack of proof of these "whiffing issues". I'm banning them simply because they change the properties of core characters, the same reason that custom characters were banned in SC3. Its enough to learn how to fight against Amy or Cervantes as they are... now people need to learn how to fight against them with different body types, different weight, and different range? Its pointless. There is absolutely zero need for these characters and they could prove to add more complications to the game than we need.

Anyone who plays Scheherezade can easily play Amy... or they are whiney bitches like Dreamkiller.
 
Jaxel said:
IdleMind, you're missing my point... I dont care if there is proof, or a lack of proof of these "whiffing issues". I'm banning them simply because they change the properties of core characters, the same reason that custom characters were banned in SC3. Its enough to learn how to fight against Amy or Cervantes as they are... now people need to learn how to fight against them with different body types, different weight, and different range? Its pointless. There is absolutely zero need for these characters and they could prove to add more complications to the game than we need.

Anyone who plays Scheherezade can easily play Amy... or they are whiney bitches like Dreamkiller.
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Thats exactly what I'm talking about here. Range issues, different range, are hitbox issues. Wheres the PROOF of difference, thats ALL I'm asking for.

-Idle
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Elfriede said:
Seriously, SCIV community is a joke. :( - so much whining.
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Remember the part where I said keep this shit out of the thread?

Shut it.

-Idle
 
Elfriede said:
So, while Hilde and Algol weren't banned, you couldn't give a valid reason. Now that both are banned, which are the real valid reasons? "'Cause they're essentially custom charactersyaddayadda" is such a weak argument. The Bonus Characters are present in all versions of SCIV, without any differences at all. They're acessible to everyone - to study moves proprieties, whiffing issues (if they're significant) and whanot at Training. What's the deal anyway?

Banning them just because they're some anime-esque products who "don't fit the game" isn't a valid reason. And even if Shura and Scheherazade are proven to be "game-breakers" (lol), how about Ashlotte, Kamikirimusi and Angol Fear? Is really fair, banning them as a whole, if three of them aren't broken?
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You are misinterpreting things. At the start of SC4, Algol, Bonus and Customs (and SW) were all banned. I decided to unban EVERYTHING because of how Hilde was turning out; because it didn't matter what kind of broke shit Algol, Bonus and Custom characters had, there was no way it was worse than what Hilde had. Now that we have banned hilde, I restored all the old bans (except SW). Its that simple.

Once again, you would know if you paid attention... Bonus characters are NOT banned because they "don't fit the game". They are banned because they are CLONES of standard characters, because they are essentially custom characters and they follow the rules of custom characters in the game engine. The rules of the game engine were not designed around the custom characters, and thats why you see random whiffing issues. So to put it simply, they are not needed... since they are CLONES.
 
IdleMind said:
Thats exactly what I'm talking about here. Range issues, different range, are hitbox issues. Wheres the PROOF of difference, thats ALL I'm asking for.
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There already is TONS of proof of the differences. We know for a FACT that Scheherezade and Shura have more range than Amy and Cervantes, respectively. We also know that they have different body types and height... combos that work against certain characters, don't work on certain other characters, etc... Just look at how much stronger Astaroth is over Ashlotte. We know this, and it is very well documented... there was even a thread back in the Talim forum outlining the differences between a large Talim and a small Talim.
 
So ur banning them because you (and quite possibly ur NJ players) dont want to learn how to fight against them?
That's so stupid, how lazy can you get. The characters bring no type of complications. You're banning them for no reason. There is nothing wrong with them, you are an idiot. Its obvious Shura and Scheherazade have more range than Amy and Cervantes, but Scheherazade also has LESS GRAB RANGE than Amy. They're not complete clones.

PS - Oh and Custom Characters weren't banned for SC3, cause I remember using Tako at least once.
 
Jaxel said:
There already is TONS of proof of the differences. We know for a FACT that Scheherezade and Shura have more range than Amy and Cervantes, respectively. We also know that they have different body types and height... combos that work against certain characters, don't work on certain other characters, etc... Just look at how much stronger Astaroth is over Ashlotte. We know this, and it is very well documented... there was even a thread back in the Talim forum outlining the differences between a large Talim and a small Talim.
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Post it. Post situations. Don't say "its a FACT" and not provide examples and links to proof.

-Idle
 
No proof of any significant differences yet. So?

Where's the truth? Oh right, it doesn't exist. There are only different opinions - interpretations of points of view. Awesome.
Keep at up, folks. (:
 
Elfriede said:
Dictating a decision without any real arguments is really stupid. "Well, we're lazy enough to deal with them, so we just ban" - the same also applies to Hilde, lol - who is beatable, but isn't the focus os this topic, though.

Pitiful. No wonder that SC community has such an idle mentality.
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Actually, this is how MOST fighting game communities do it... A decision maker makes the decision, and people move on. The problem with this community is that we haven't been firm, and people banter back in forth in dumb arguments without ever coming to a decision... so both sides of the argument get pissed off.
 
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