Cervantes top 10 moves.

yall are crazy. 1ab:b is suicide outside of wall combos. risk a free launch on block...from a move that is easily dashed away from...for such petty damage. i don't understand why you would ever want to train your opponent to duck anyway. i'd far rather spam his broken ass throws. i don't list iGDR on its own because, while it is certainly his best and most crucial move, i see it as mainly combo filler. anyway, in order of awesomeness;

1. 3b
2. aB
3. b+g~iGDR/a+g BE
4. 3a
5. 4b BE
6. 33b
7. 2a+b
8. bK
9. bt b+k
10. CE
 
Finally someone who agrees regarding 1AB. However, I do think is crucial to make them duck, otherwise I don't see how can we land half of his stuff.

Side step isn't enough every time, throws aren't a reliable tool and if they manage to guess right it also mean a free launcher in most cases for them.
 
Lobo still doesnt even know that the input is 1A:B, not 1AB:B. So i wouldnt take him as a reference :P

There are people who completely refuse to duck, Just throws isnt enough to break them. First of all for throws you need to be in the face of your opponent, backstep is still decent.

Also 1AB is an 70 DMG antistep low, which is his best antistep, most damaging, giving most Meter gain.

If you dont trust my judgement, i can ask people who play me a lot to give their opinion. I dont want to sound elitist but i cant even see how this can be argued. Its probably the best low in the game.

More to the topic: I use 7[B+K] a lot these days. Most underrated move in Cervys Movelist i guess. I play a lot against Maxous Alpha, and the only thing which can save you in this Matchup is escaping his throws. His throws are pretty damn OP and need a nerf asap. Pre Patch you could backdash out of Alphas Mixup, but now this means free 100 dmg 33B ch.

7B+K jumps over throws, Lows, 2As, 1AAA, 1BB, FC3BB etc for guaranteed 66B Backhit. Of course Alpha again has tools to deal with it, but its a move to force Alpha to play different. Very effective and very annoying for the opponent. I highly encourage you to experiment with this more, its not like the old versions, it jumps over standing opponent also...
 
maybe it is different now...i haven't played much post patch...but i found that 1ab would get backdashed at first and the b attack blocked the majority of the time. as for it being his best antistep tool, i far prefer the range and safety of 3a.

if i am gonna throw out something crazy and unsafe, assuming that they will step, i'm gonna do 3a+b~bbb...impossible to fuck up, better range and coverage, better pushback on block, and around 80 dmg compared to 1a:b~iGDR which does somewhere in the high 60s iirc. not to mention if you are in 1a:b range, i can probably throw you.

i'd never argue that 1a:b isn't a great move...hell i used to think it was the best low in the game also. i just think that he has better tools for everything that it does. i can't lie and pretend that i don't use it as a round ender chip low though...i do all the time.

i guess it is just a testament to how versatile the character is. i feel like, to be most effective, i want to train you to not duck ever. getting in close is never really an issue as cerv can play the gunshot and 4b BE game all day on spacers, and staying in isn't nearly as difficult in 1.02.

i honestly think that a lot of this game was designed around SC4 online, in how you play and anticipate. it feels like the lows are all either too fast to react to and of laughable damage, especially at the end or the round...or they are so slow that you can block them, even in lag. there seems to be much less emphasis on reaction and much, much more on anticipation and making correct guesses. this is why i love cervy in this game. his GC game is strong. his throws do 65 and 70 dmg, and if you get CH by...well anything...you are getting raped. guess guess guess guess. that is how i feel most effective with him, at least.
 
lobo said:
maybe it is different now...i haven't played much post patch...but i found that 1ab would get backdashed at first and the b attack blocked the majority of the time. as for it being his best antistep tool, i far prefer the range and safety of 3a.
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Lobo 1AB has bigger range than 3A, just sayin :) I tested it with 4KK from starting point. Second one will hit. From thos position 3A range is too short, 1AB hits. So 1AB Range>>3A range.

Maybe you havent used it enough to appreciate it, i see a strong lack of knowledge about this move :P

Every man for himself! :P
 
It's the (imo excessive) backdash nerf. Pre-NCR, I'd mostly played with people who had "proper" SC instincts and tried to play position. Now, however, the math tells us that standing still and pressing a button is ALWAYS better than attempting movement. As such, I predict we'll see a radical shift in tier lists based on overall safety, the presence of an annoying low or 50/50, and how hard a character can safely chase backdash. I mean, look at what Alex was able to do with nothing but Xiba low ATs and 4B. Also look at how Mitsu can force you to take scrubby 50/50s without risk of backdash and how Pat's 1K (hit) makes you mash 2A or gamble half your life.

Cervantes doesn't fit very well into that paradigm. He can still win damage races, but it's kinda lame. After the tourney I played a bunch of matches with the rule that I could only touch the joystick to input moves. No step, backdash, or 8wr. I was undefeated when I employed that strat.
 
Hates said:
It's the (imo excessive) backdash nerf. Pre-NCR, I'd mostly played with people who had "proper" SC instincts and tried to play position. Now, however, the math tells us that standing still and pressing a button is ALWAYS better than attempting movement. As such, I predict we'll see a radical shift in tier lists based on overall safety, the presence of an annoying low or 50/50, and how hard a character can safely chase backdash. I mean, look at what Alex was able to do with nothing but Xiba low ATs and 4B. Also look at how Mitsu can force you to take scrubby 50/50s without risk of backdash and how Pat's 1K (hit) makes you mash 2A or gamble half your life.

Cervantes doesn't fit very well into that paradigm. He can still win damage races, but it's kinda lame. After the tourney I played a bunch of matches with the rule that I could only touch the joystick to input moves. No step, backdash, or 8wr. I was undefeated when I employed that strat.
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Damn I didn't realize the backdash nerf was that severe. I'll play around with it some.
 
KowtowRobinson said:
Damn I didn't realize the backdash nerf was that severe. I'll play around with it some.
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I didn't start to feel it affecting my gameplay until I ran into people who had already figured out how best to exploit it. I now think that change dwarfs everything character-specific. I've had to change my playstyle completely.
 
So are we collectively ready to admit that constantly guessing ala DOA is not a good thing and ask for stepg back? :P

Because, all kidding aside, i sure the hell am.

Moldredd said:
I'm assuming lobo is playing a somewhat 2D version of SC5 lol.
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moldredd, the joke is on you. that is THE ONLY version of SC5. 2.5D at most. it is more akin to tekken now than any SC game. stepping is just so risky it is almost never worth it. in this game, it is riskier for me to step then, say, throw out a random iGDR. i'm gonna eat 100 damage if either one fails. at least the iGDR will net me 120 if it lands.

Hates, while i agree completely with the overall drastic changes to tiers and gameplay, i don't think of the backdash nerf as hurting cervy. It is likely because of how i've taken to playing him. Rushdown, rushdown, rushdown. Abuse his throw game and the tick damage. Throw wild haymakers and toss the dice. Cervantes plays that game very very well now. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?

Your math is correct. Safety, reaction, frame exploiting and overall positioning as "good play" guidelines lose big time to correct reads, anticipation and constantly pressing mixups even slightly in your favor. It is one more reason why i said that the game, played "correctly", is very similar to sc4 online in 4 bars. I also believe that it is why nightmare is so good, in spite that he is mediocre on paper comparatively, and would be ass tier in his current form in any previous SC game. It is also why i felt cervy was overrated pre-patch. He may have been good on paper, but his ability to chase down and force guesses (which is what i feel this game is all about) was not good. I think the 44 nerf helped him greatly in that regard. Then again, i'm playing him like a scrub...ignoring frames in favor of simply 'safe or not' and guessing with the tides of each match.

In the words of alex j, "you just gotta stop thinking".
 
Eh, he definitely doesn't work as well in the new system, but pre-patch he was a monster. I'm trying to find a way to make him work that isn't boring as shit for me. I don't want step g or safe backstep, but I don't want movement to be this risky, either. Moderation in all things, etc. In the meantime, I'm in the lab like a motherfucker...
 
docvizzo said:
More to the topic: I use 7[B+K] a lot these days. Most underrated move in Cervys Movelist i guess. I play a lot against Maxous Alpha, and the only thing which can save you in this Matchup is escaping his throws. His throws are pretty damn OP and need a nerf asap. Pre Patch you could backdash out of Alphas Mixup, but now this means free 100 dmg 33B ch.

7B+K jumps over throws, Lows, 2As, 1AAA, 1BB, FC3BB etc for guaranteed 66B Backhit. Of course Alpha again has tools to deal with it, but its a move to force Alpha to play different. Very effective and very annoying for the opponent. I highly encourage you to experiment with this more, its not like the old versions, it jumps over standing opponent also...
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From a bystander point of view (I am interested in Cervantes as a character I'll play in the future, but for now I am more focused on how to deal with him with Alpha Patroklos) :
- 1AB is clearly annoying when playing against him. This move has all the properties you may want : JG setup, 8wrun/step setup, antistep and invisible low.
- 9[B+K] (I dunno why Docvizzo taunts so much Lobo when he does that mistake himself :P when I got to training mode I was surprised when I tried 7[B+K] haha) is annoying but clearly has weaknesses. One of them is being unsafe (-14 move).

Hates said:
It's the (imo excessive) backdash nerf. Pre-NCR, I'd mostly played with people who had "proper" SC instincts and tried to play position. Now, however, the math tells us that standing still and pressing a button is ALWAYS better than attempting movement. As such, I predict we'll see a radical shift in tier lists based on overall safety, the presence of an annoying low or 50/50, and how hard a character can safely chase backdash. I mean, look at what Alex was able to do with nothing but Xiba low ATs and 4B. Also look at how Mitsu can force you to take scrubby 50/50s without risk of backdash and how Pat's 1K (hit) makes you mash 2A or gamble half your life.

Cervantes doesn't fit very well into that paradigm. He can still win damage races, but it's kinda lame. After the tourney I played a bunch of matches with the rule that I could only touch the joystick to input moves. No step, backdash, or 8wr. I was undefeated when I employed that strat.
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You're clearly over-exagerating this ;) But I agree with you about the backdash nerf being excessive. 20f is waaaay too much, 10 or 12 frames would be perfect IMO.
Cervantes can play position game a LOT better than most of the character, mostly because he has so good whiff-punishing moves.
IMO Cervantes is one of the best character post-patch.
 
I don't think I'm necessarily over-exaggerating, actually. The best odds backdash gives are now risking big damage in order to get big damage, but since there are actually backdash "success" conditions which yield no damage whatsoever, the whole scenario is dramatically mathematically inferior to just 2A_block for defense. The absence of a +frame low and a fast, safe, beefy way to chase backdash really puts Cervantes in a swing-for-your-life-and-pray-you-win-the-damage-race mode.

I'm having 0 fun with the game now, which utterly kills me.

Edit for clarification: I don't think this makes Cervantes a bad character per se. Just not the dominant force he once was.
 
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