Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about Matchups

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I know this is vague but her whip mode has some really long range move that is two hits...I think it's better to step to one side (forget which side) or else you'll block and just get pushed out again.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

If you are thinking about WP 6B+K 2_8
The second hit is punishable by 33B. The best is to step the first hit and block the second to be in range for punition.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I did some testing on Ivy's WP 6B+K 2_8...

Assuming that NM is on the 1P side and Ivy on the 2P side:

1. NM can step WP 6B+K to both sides, although it is far easier to step it to his right... that is step using 2. Interestingly, if they use 6B+K 2 and you step using 8, the second part, where Ivy's sword flicks in the 2 direction will still hit you...

2. NM can 8WR to his right to avoid WP 6B+K. That is, holding 1, 2, or 3 will allow you to side walk WP 6B+K. While side walking to his right NM can still guard against either the 2 or 8 follow up to WP 6B+K. However he cannot sidewalk it to his left. That is, you cannot hold 7, 8, or 9 to avoid WP 6B+K. I have yet to test this in match play but holding 3 seems to be a better option as it moves you closer at the same time.

3. If you block the both hits of 6B+K 2_8 the push back is enormous. NM cannot punish after blocking both hits unless he was extremely close to Ivy to begin with. However, if you side step or 8WR the first hit and block only the second hit then NM can almost always punish with 6B:B. Only at the tip range of WP 6B+K 2_8 is 6B:B an inconsistent punisher due to occasional whiffing. For some reason, though, I seem to have a lot of difficulty getting the JF to come out at tip... does anyone else have this problem? 33B can also be used to punish WP 6B+K 2_8 if only the second hit is blocked. However this is very range dependent. At mid-far block, the 33B will whiff. At close block of the second hit of WP 6B+K 2_8, you can also punish using agA or iagA.

4. WP 6B+K 2_8 has a weird dead zone close to Ivy. If you evade the first hit and then try to block the second, at certain ranges, the second hit will simply go through you. This occurs consistently when NM is close to Ivy. You must try and block the second hit for this to occur, if you simply stand there without holding G then you will still be hit. If you continue to 8WR then you will still be hit.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LGInfinite said:
I did some testing on Ivy's WP 6B+K 2_8...

Assuming that NM is on the 1P side and Ivy on the 2P side:

1. NM can step WP 6B+K to both sides, although it is far easier to step it to his right... that is step using 2. Interestingly, if they use 6B+K 2 and you step using 8, the second part, where Ivy's sword flicks in the 2 direction will still hit you...

2. NM can 8WR to his right to avoid WP 6B+K. That is, holding 1, 2, or 3 will allow you to side walk WP 6B+K. While side walking to his right NM can still guard against either the 2 or 8 follow up to WP 6B+K. However he cannot sidewalk it to his left. That is, you cannot hold 7, 8, or 9 to avoid WP 6B+K. I have yet to test this in match play but holding 3 seems to be a better option as it moves you closer at the same time.

3. If you block the both hits of 6B+K 2_8 the push back is enormous. NM cannot punish after blocking both hits unless he was extremely close to Ivy to begin with. However, if you side step or 8WR the first hit and block only the second hit then NM can almost always punish with 6B:B. Only at the tip range of WP 6B+K 2_8 is 6B:B an inconsistent punisher due to occasional whiffing. For some reason, though, I seem to have a lot of difficulty getting the JF to come out at tip... does anyone else have this problem? 33B can also be used to punish WP 6B+K 2_8 if only the second hit is blocked. However this is very range dependent. At mid-far block, the 33B will whiff. At close block of the second hit of WP 6B+K 2_8, you can also punish using agA or iagA.

4. WP 6B+K 2_8 has a weird dead zone close to Ivy. If you evade the first hit and then try to block the second, at certain ranges, the second hit will simply go through you. This occurs consistently when NM is close to Ivy. You must try and block the second hit for this to occur, if you simply stand there without holding G then you will still be hit. If you continue to 8WR then you will still be hit.
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good stuff

-LAU
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

talking about ivy, there is a good thing you should know guys, after u block her A+B,A (on her Whipp stance i think :S) if u block the first 2 hits u can release the G in the last one (the 3rd hit) and the last one will whiff, then u can punish with A+K or if u are fast enough u can !WSB her or 33B :)

-Vlaster-
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

So is Nightmare going to have a matchup chart discussion thread too? I see some of you guys making a lot of posts in other character's SAs though so I guess if the community needs numbers we can just take the ratings from other threads.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Yep a matchup chart would be nice.
I dont have much offline experience vs good players but my fight buddy is playing some rare chars like tira, lizz or rock. I think i can help on these matchups.

@Tiamat: Happy Birthday !!
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

microgamer:

imo kinda pointless to have a NM matchup thread... nobody will agree with us anyways...

Kilik vs NM in kilik thread is 6:4....

but if you ask NM players we feel this is opposite.

theoretical NM can be top tier if you really want me to argue about it....i15 punisher that can ringout and give you frame advantage AND anti step and extremely good range... iagA IS EWGF in SC4...
-LAU
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I think we have to stay pragmatic, because if we start theory fighting with all JF/instant moves then yoshi is beyond god tier with SDGF K:K

iaga is high, 32 dmg, only gives +1 advantage and much harder to execute. It cant be compared to EWGF
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Block from far to closeup.
iaga = +3~+1.
Aga = +2~+0.
jaga = +10~+8.

Kilik vs NM is simply 3:7......NM is 7. ((My opinion))
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Greven said:
I think we have to stay pragmatic, because if we start theory fighting with all JF/instant moves then yoshi is beyond god tier with SDGF K:K

iaga is high, 32 dmg, only gives +1 advantage and much harder to execute. It cant be compared to EWGF
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i don't have too much problems doing iagA

don't generalize.

-LAU
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LOL.

If iagA iagA iagA iagA iagA were a juggle then we'd be verging into EWGF territory.

This is something that I said in the Sieg forums, but I'll say it again anyway. There is such a huge amount of variation in how people play NM that it will be very difficult for us to agree on match ups, just because we probably won't approach them the same way.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LAU said:
i don't have too much problems doing iagA

don't generalize.

-LAU
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Neither do I, when using it standing. But much harder when it comes to punition.

Anyway i still think its his best move but not spammable as EWGF(TT version)
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LAU said:
microgamer:

imo kinda pointless to have a NM matchup thread... nobody will agree with us anyways...

Kilik vs NM in kilik thread is 6:4....

but if you ask NM players we feel this is opposite.

theoretical NM can be top tier if you really want me to argue about it....i15 punisher that can ringout and give you frame advantage AND anti step and extremely good range... iagA IS EWGF in SC4...
-LAU
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lol. No its not Kilik vs. Nightmare is 5/5 in the Kilik thread and its always been that way even in the long lost old matchup thread.

You know I want to play u personally now after thinking about things. You seem to be overly negative about a number of things. Why don't u just discuss. I mean my thread alone has been open to discussion more than any other. I have changed things in retrospect to other peoples opinions, never have I imposed my decision over anyone else unless I felt the person arguing was just well u know. Seriously man relax because ur like in every thread bringing things down. There's common ground as you can see in my thread is another example like the Kilik vs. Ivy debate where I averaged out the opinions.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Greven said:
Yep a matchup chart would be nice.
I dont have much offline experience vs good players but my fight buddy is playing some rare chars like tira, lizz or rock. I think i can help on these matchups.

@Tiamat: Happy Birthday !!
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thanks :)

ook so...here is MY matchup chart. this is my no compromises, no second opinion, no trying to make everyone happy list (unlike my previous matchup ranks for NM from the other project)


vs Algol - 5/5
vs Amy - 4/6
vs Astaroth - 4/6
vs Cassandra - 6/4
vs Cervantes - 5/5
vs Darth Vader - 6/4
vs Hilde - 4/6
vs Ivy - ?
vs Kilik - 6/4
vs Lizardman - ?
vs Maxi - 6/4
vs Mitsurugi - 5/5
vs Nightmare - null
vs Raphael - 4/6
vs Rock - ?
vs Seong Mi-Na - ?
vs Setsuka - 4/6
vs Siegfried - 6/4
vs Sophitia - 5/5
vs Taki - ?
vs Talim - 7/3
vs The Apprentice - 6/4
vs Tira - ?
vs Voldo - 5/5
vs Xianghua - 4/6
vs Yoda - ?
vs Yoshimitsu - 5/5
vs Yun-seong - ?
vs Zasalamel - 6/4

overall grade: +3
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

hm...

what i believe in.. .like tiamat I don't need to please anyone

i wouldn't agree against Xianghua match up because i can't think of why NM is in a disadvantage...

i still believe sisters are good against NM

I think Rock is even match or maybe Rock > NM lol mainly because 2A+K for rock kinda kills NM's stance pretty well...

I think NM got adv against voldo

Maxi I really have no idea now but i'll take your word for it....

and everything else is pretty much same as tiamat.

-LAU
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microgamer:

try to be in vegas during early-mid jan ;)

we'll get to play sometimes

-LAU
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I really think it'll be better to discuss on how to deal with the matchups than what's the matchup ratio is.

Like knowing how to step and punish what is way more important than arguing on 4/6, 6/4s.
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

rii:

you see the ratio is the reason for me to say

"You have an advantage AND YOU STILL LOST!!!" MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or.
"it was bad matchup i don't suck.. my character does"

lol

-LAU
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LAU said:
microgamer:

try to be in vegas during early-mid jan ;)

we'll get to play sometimes

-LAU
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You come in for CES every year, right? I'm usually back to school in Oregon right after new year's day so I doubt we'll be in Vegas at the same time anytime soon :/

Too bad you're not coming to EVO
 
Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LAU:

Xianghua was the one I was most reluctant on when putting the ranks. I have played vs both millionz and whodat's X's (which play very different). I think she should still beat him because she has a lot of good A moves and her throws are good damage + ok range. as opposed to sisters...

I really don't feel like NM has much problems with sisters anymore. in cass's case I just feel like NM has better mixup, damage, and attack flow. just dont get hit on CH by stupid stuff , duck much (her lows are weak anyway though her throws are good), and keep unsafe stuff to a bare minimum. cass pressure tends to fail against backdash G and step G pretty badly and her okizeme is lame as long as you dont roll the wrong way and eat a 4BB:A. nightamre on the other hand has his great oki going for him here so he can keep the flow going. I honestly feel that I could beat a cass player most of the time even if the other guy actually played better. I think she has to work harder than NM to get the KOs. sophie tracks better than cass but her throw range is absolutely abysmal. every time i play the matchup i get her to whiff grabs with small backsteps like everywhere and she can't do much about it, meanwhile I've got huge grabs at my disposal. her CF is better than cass though (this is partly helped by her being less linear).

voldo....his BS mixups still piss me off (BS 1A mixup with BS iWR B is just retarded imo) and he has great TCs like A+B. CF helps him as well, though I tend not to get CFed much vs him due to my heavy sidestep centric game against his front turned stance. hopefully I can play chi again and see how that goes.

NM vs Maxi is cause of damage and spacing. maxi has some frametraps on nightmare that don't normally work but IMO they aren't a huge deal. maxi honestly just does not do enough damage
 
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