hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
vs maxi
Amy 6:4
X 6:4
Yun 5:5
Asta 4:6
Sieg 5:5
NM 4:6
Amy 6:4
X 6:4
Yun 5:5
Asta 4:6
Sieg 5:5
NM 4:6
Character Matchup Tier Project
- Thread starter Tiamat
- Start date
Maxou
[11] Champion
Actually, Setsuka is really a character who can be problematic for Hilde.
Not saying she has the adv., Hilde is with or without her doom combo a really good char.
I have good knowledge of the match up since I play against Hilde on a regular basis ... (3 Hilde player in my area ...).
- Her SS game really stands out against her, on this match up it is your most important tool. It'll make the Hilde focus on killing your SS game, which she can't really do at long / mid range since Hilde lacks good anti step tools at long/mid range. She's pretty linear, and a single move you step allows you to punish her for 86 dmg.
- She won't be able to make you duck at all since all her lows (apart from 2K and 1K) can be blocked/punished on reaction.
- She'll focus on throws and sidestep to deal her damage, throws isn't that big of a deal if you stay solid (you'll take some of course, but your damage will often be superior to what she can deal). Your biggest problem will be side step, you NEED to use your anti step tools : 214A, 11A, 66A, 2A, 3A, 1AAA. With the strenghs/weaknesses they have. I find 214A, 11A and 66A to work the best here.
- take in account Setsuka's kick game, it is really important here. 3K and 6K will be your best friends. 6K is likely not to be punished.
- in order to deal damage you'll have to break her defense with the usual arsenal Setsuka has : 1AAA/11A/2K, throws, powerful mids in order not to make them duck and your CH friendly moves : 6K, umbrella. "Random" umbrellas are likely to connect since Hilde will focus on throws/sidestep/charges. You'll make try to poke you which is all the better for you. Don't forget about your frame traps (214A, 4K, 2B+K...)
- Forget about 1B:B (C3 A autoGI the second one and she has the adv. even if you do only 1 afterward :/). Forget about FC 3B:B (the same). Forget about bA, forget about agB.
- don't whiff random move, only use 33B if you really expect her to backstep or in order to whiff punish her.
- A+K A is a really good tool in this match up. If you expect a charge move after you block one of her move, use it ! It'll go through her. (exemple after C2 BB, your A+K A will go through her if she does C2 AA / C3 A afterwards). And you'll be punished for minor damage if she does a middle (often 3K or a kick move). On block, step ~ break throws (try not to get it blocked).
Of course you'll get hit by doom combos, we aren't perfect player, but providing I stay solid and I don't do BIG mistakes, I often win more than I loose against her. IMO it's 5-5 match up.
Smaller dmg after A+G doesn't change the match up (side throw/tech trap after A+G /B+G throw are still insane). It's maybe adv. Setsuka, she'll often deal more damage than he can make, especially if you take in account the risk / reward when you step a bull rush. Besides your won't get punished for a lot of damage if you throw your punishable stuff (best punition he has against 1AAA as an exemple is 3B 2A+K). The frame traps works wonder here too.
Not saying she has the adv., Hilde is with or without her doom combo a really good char.
I have good knowledge of the match up since I play against Hilde on a regular basis ... (3 Hilde player in my area ...).
- Her SS game really stands out against her, on this match up it is your most important tool. It'll make the Hilde focus on killing your SS game, which she can't really do at long / mid range since Hilde lacks good anti step tools at long/mid range. She's pretty linear, and a single move you step allows you to punish her for 86 dmg.
- She won't be able to make you duck at all since all her lows (apart from 2K and 1K) can be blocked/punished on reaction.
- She'll focus on throws and sidestep to deal her damage, throws isn't that big of a deal if you stay solid (you'll take some of course, but your damage will often be superior to what she can deal). Your biggest problem will be side step, you NEED to use your anti step tools : 214A, 11A, 66A, 2A, 3A, 1AAA. With the strenghs/weaknesses they have. I find 214A, 11A and 66A to work the best here.
- take in account Setsuka's kick game, it is really important here. 3K and 6K will be your best friends. 6K is likely not to be punished.
- in order to deal damage you'll have to break her defense with the usual arsenal Setsuka has : 1AAA/11A/2K, throws, powerful mids in order not to make them duck and your CH friendly moves : 6K, umbrella. "Random" umbrellas are likely to connect since Hilde will focus on throws/sidestep/charges. You'll make try to poke you which is all the better for you. Don't forget about your frame traps (214A, 4K, 2B+K...)
- Forget about 1B:B (C3 A autoGI the second one and she has the adv. even if you do only 1 afterward :/). Forget about FC 3B:B (the same). Forget about bA, forget about agB.
- don't whiff random move, only use 33B if you really expect her to backstep or in order to whiff punish her.
- A+K A is a really good tool in this match up. If you expect a charge move after you block one of her move, use it ! It'll go through her. (exemple after C2 BB, your A+K A will go through her if she does C2 AA / C3 A afterwards). And you'll be punished for minor damage if she does a middle (often 3K or a kick move). On block, step ~ break throws (try not to get it blocked).
Of course you'll get hit by doom combos, we aren't perfect player, but providing I stay solid and I don't do BIG mistakes, I often win more than I loose against her. IMO it's 5-5 match up.
Smaller dmg after A+G doesn't change the match up (side throw/tech trap after A+G /B+G throw are still insane). It's maybe adv. Setsuka, she'll often deal more damage than he can make, especially if you take in account the risk / reward when you step a bull rush. Besides your won't get punished for a lot of damage if you throw your punishable stuff (best punition he has against 1AAA as an exemple is 3B 2A+K). The frame traps works wonder here too.
Shenrei
[09] Warrior
Sidestep is of course, important. I never said it wasn't. But it's not just her. Step is an important basic fundamental for most of the characters in the game.
What I was saying is that how effective her SS B+K is against a specific character shouldn't be the most important factor in determining her matchup effectiveness. She still has a shitload of tools to use post step, like 33B if you wanna step from a distance and play catch me if you can. Then again, other characters have plenty of good post step moves as well, provided they make sure they have the available frames to execute.
I don't really like throwing out numbers, or talking about matchup theory in general but here's what I think for the hell of it. Some 5-5 matches are hard to rank. It's like sometimes I wanna say a character has an advantage but not quite the advantage that warrants a 6-4. Once again, this is my opinion.
VS Mitsu 6 - 4
VS Taki 6 - 4
VS Ivy 4 - 6
VS Voldo 4 - 6
VS Yoshi 6 - 4
VS Maxi 7 - 3
VS Cervantes 6 - 4 or 5 -5 (But I believe Setsuka definitely has a slight advantage here)
VS Amy 5 - 5
VS Sieg 6 - 4
VS Cass 6 - 4
VS Sophie 6 - 4
What I was saying is that how effective her SS B+K is against a specific character shouldn't be the most important factor in determining her matchup effectiveness. She still has a shitload of tools to use post step, like 33B if you wanna step from a distance and play catch me if you can. Then again, other characters have plenty of good post step moves as well, provided they make sure they have the available frames to execute.
I don't really like throwing out numbers, or talking about matchup theory in general but here's what I think for the hell of it. Some 5-5 matches are hard to rank. It's like sometimes I wanna say a character has an advantage but not quite the advantage that warrants a 6-4. Once again, this is my opinion.
VS Mitsu 6 - 4
VS Taki 6 - 4
VS Ivy 4 - 6
VS Voldo 4 - 6
VS Yoshi 6 - 4
VS Maxi 7 - 3
VS Cervantes 6 - 4 or 5 -5 (But I believe Setsuka definitely has a slight advantage here)
VS Amy 5 - 5
VS Sieg 6 - 4
VS Cass 6 - 4
VS Sophie 6 - 4
Maxou
[11] Champion
Good to see your opinion Shenrei !
The match up you said all seems pretty possible to me too...
Could you detail your opinion about Setsu-Ivy? (I am pretty sure I am biaised about this match up, my Ivy opponent may not be the strongest with Ivy xD)
Voldo may very well have the adv. against Setsuka, I can totally see it, like I can see the contrary too (personal biais perhaps), could you detail your opinion too?
Setsu vs Sophi is 6-4 IMO, Sophi has problems to break Setsuka's defense while the contrary isn't that true. Throws help a lot too. But it is only my opinion and I may be wrong.
Setsu vs Amy is 6 -4 and this I am pretty sure (I play against amy on a regular basis, at least 3/4 Amy on my area, 4 including mine - which isn't that good). I even thought it was 7-3 at one moment. Setsuka limits Amy in a lot of parts of her whole gameplay (punitions/step/tons of FC moves/better throws...).
The match up you said all seems pretty possible to me too...
Could you detail your opinion about Setsu-Ivy? (I am pretty sure I am biaised about this match up, my Ivy opponent may not be the strongest with Ivy xD)
Voldo may very well have the adv. against Setsuka, I can totally see it, like I can see the contrary too (personal biais perhaps), could you detail your opinion too?
Setsu vs Sophi is 6-4 IMO, Sophi has problems to break Setsuka's defense while the contrary isn't that true. Throws help a lot too. But it is only my opinion and I may be wrong.
Setsu vs Amy is 6 -4 and this I am pretty sure (I play against amy on a regular basis, at least 3/4 Amy on my area, 4 including mine - which isn't that good). I even thought it was 7-3 at one moment. Setsuka limits Amy in a lot of parts of her whole gameplay (punitions/step/tons of FC moves/better throws...).
Runis
Doom Combo is Back!
Matchups for Rock
ALGOL 0/10
AMY 2/8
APPR 1/9
ASTA 3/7
CASS 2/8
CERV 3/7
HILDE 6/4
IVY 1/9
KILIK 2/8
LIZ 1/9
MAXI 2/8
MINA 0/10
MITSU 1/9
NM 3/7
RAPH 3/7
SETSU 3/7
SIEG 2/8
SOPH 0/10
TAKI 1/9
TALIM 5/5
TIRA 1/9
VADER 1/9
VOLDO 2/8
X 1/9
YODA 0/10
YOSHI 2/8
YUN 3/7
ZAS 1/9
And no this isn't 100% serious. Although Rock does have a nasty matchup against algol mina and yoda.
ALGOL 0/10
AMY 2/8
APPR 1/9
ASTA 3/7
CASS 2/8
CERV 3/7
HILDE 6/4
IVY 1/9
KILIK 2/8
LIZ 1/9
MAXI 2/8
MINA 0/10
MITSU 1/9
NM 3/7
RAPH 3/7
SETSU 3/7
SIEG 2/8
SOPH 0/10
TAKI 1/9
TALIM 5/5
TIRA 1/9
VADER 1/9
VOLDO 2/8
X 1/9
YODA 0/10
YOSHI 2/8
YUN 3/7
ZAS 1/9
And no this isn't 100% serious. Although Rock does have a nasty matchup against algol mina and yoda.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Runis: Please stop posting lists, as I stopped taking them seriously after reading your comment about Rock crouch grabbing C3A on reaction.
It seems no one cares about mitsu so Maxi is on the table. I've got a lot of questions about those matchups hmmm...will ask soon. I will say that the rank of maxi vs algol being only 4-6 is um....very generous of you. I thought my current 3-7 was generous. :P
ShenRei:
Thanks, I think I'll just take your word for those, we don't have a good Setsuka around here. What does Hates think about Setsuka vs Cervy matchup? You are in same area so I'm sure you've played it.
edit: updated first post with some Setsuka and Maxi matchups. did not add certain ones that I feel are more debatable
About Setsuka B+K:
Lets stop talking about this if possible. I just wanted to point out that setsuka has a sidestep whiff punish (which can be used on reaction) for 1/3+ life, while almost no other character can do this. Some cannot even get 1/4 life (zas) and coincidentally, or not, these characters tend to suck.
It seems no one cares about mitsu so Maxi is on the table. I've got a lot of questions about those matchups hmmm...will ask soon. I will say that the rank of maxi vs algol being only 4-6 is um....very generous of you. I thought my current 3-7 was generous. :P
ShenRei:
Thanks, I think I'll just take your word for those, we don't have a good Setsuka around here. What does Hates think about Setsuka vs Cervy matchup? You are in same area so I'm sure you've played it.
edit: updated first post with some Setsuka and Maxi matchups. did not add certain ones that I feel are more debatable
About Setsuka B+K:
Lets stop talking about this if possible. I just wanted to point out that setsuka has a sidestep whiff punish (which can be used on reaction) for 1/3+ life, while almost no other character can do this. Some cannot even get 1/4 life (zas) and coincidentally, or not, these characters tend to suck.
Alex.J
[14] Master
honestly I would put Amy vs Maxi 8:2 in Amy's favor, same with X. Both these characters basically have a beat all option for anytime Maxi gets into stance. Between X's 2a and 1b+k she can basically knock Maxi out of every string. For example, Maxi's 3ba and 3b mixups all get stopped from X's 1b+k. Maxi's only option of not getting hit is doing 3b and backing up. Amy has the same thing on him also, 3A beats all of Maxi's 3b and 3ba options except for backing up after 3b. I honestly I might put the Amy vs Maxi one higher, theres no reason a good Amy who knows how to fight against maxi should lose this matchup. Ask UberLeet, KrayzieCD, and Soakrates if you don't believe me. They are all Norcal Maxi or former Norcal Maxi players who know how bad a good character vs maxi can be.
Aqua_Snake
[09] Warrior
Your talking to me right? LOL.
Funny that you mention it. When I put that down, I was starting to second guess it. Algol is even more annoying than what I consider of his other 4-6 matchups. 3.5/6.5 seems more accurate. I don't see Algol on the same annoying level of Kilik as far as his matchup goes. Kilik is to Maxi as Honda is to Fei Long in ST.
Completely unfair. XD
Shenrei
[09] Warrior
Maxou:
About Voldo, that's how I feel after playing Manta a lot. I feel as if Voldo can limit Setsuka's useful tools at specific ranges. Don't want to go in detail because my mind really isn't working to well at the moment. Same with Ivy, but to a lesser degree. My rating with Amy is biased cuz I lose to Alex a lot!
Tiamat:
Last time I played Hates was 2 months ago or so, but I also played Botsu a ton and after playing them both I feel Setsuka has a slight advantage in that matchup. I avoided using the decimal system but if we're doing that then I feel some 6-4 matches are definitely different from other 6-4 matches. I trust Maxou's opinion for the most part, and he can explain the numbers better than I can.
About Voldo, that's how I feel after playing Manta a lot. I feel as if Voldo can limit Setsuka's useful tools at specific ranges. Don't want to go in detail because my mind really isn't working to well at the moment. Same with Ivy, but to a lesser degree. My rating with Amy is biased cuz I lose to Alex a lot!
Tiamat:
Last time I played Hates was 2 months ago or so, but I also played Botsu a ton and after playing them both I feel Setsuka has a slight advantage in that matchup. I avoided using the decimal system but if we're doing that then I feel some 6-4 matches are definitely different from other 6-4 matches. I trust Maxou's opinion for the most part, and he can explain the numbers better than I can.
Saitoh
[10] Knight
I will come back on Mitsu vs Asta later, when some vids of me against a strong mitsu are released to prove some of my points :)
Dr. Hates
Jerk.
I don't think I have played against enough Setsuka to speak from a position of real authority--certainly not enough to contradict Shenrei--and I am sort of biased anyway because of how brutally difficult Setsuka was for me to deal with using SC3 Astaroth, so everything feels so much easier by comparison. In terms of raw numbers, it *seems* like Setsuka has a slight advantage, so perhaps we should leave it as that for now. After I have had a chance to more thoroughly explore that matchup, though, my opinion may change.
mikosu
Goderator of pink hearts
These matchup numbers are based on perfect execution right? Then I hate to say it but Cervy/Yun just might be 7:3 like Hates said.
-Yun has the range advantage but most of his spacing moves are unsafe.
-Cervy's CF game is pathetic and can't compare to Yun's but CF capability doesn't factor into matchups since effectiveness varies by opponent.
- Cervy aB does great damage for an i13 move (32 iirc). That's plenty to keep Yun in check. Punishes Yun well if not blocked at tip.
-iTP makes perpetual CR use difficult. On block he can iTP away from anything except CR B. Definitely in Cervy's favor.
-Yun punishment only starts getting good at i16 with his 32 damage BB. Yun being rather unsafe gives a close-up Cervy lots of punish opportunities. Luckily Cervy's best punisher from FC is the 2 frames slower iGDR.
-It's in Yun's best interest to either SS or CR Cervy verts. Regular punishment isn't as scary.
-All Yun lows except 2K and CR A+K are iGDR punishable.
- Both lack good lows but Yun's mids are stronger.
-Yun has the range advantage but most of his spacing moves are unsafe.
-Cervy's CF game is pathetic and can't compare to Yun's but CF capability doesn't factor into matchups since effectiveness varies by opponent.
- Cervy aB does great damage for an i13 move (32 iirc). That's plenty to keep Yun in check. Punishes Yun well if not blocked at tip.
-iTP makes perpetual CR use difficult. On block he can iTP away from anything except CR B. Definitely in Cervy's favor.
-Yun punishment only starts getting good at i16 with his 32 damage BB. Yun being rather unsafe gives a close-up Cervy lots of punish opportunities. Luckily Cervy's best punisher from FC is the 2 frames slower iGDR.
-It's in Yun's best interest to either SS or CR Cervy verts. Regular punishment isn't as scary.
-All Yun lows except 2K and CR A+K are iGDR punishable.
- Both lack good lows but Yun's mids are stronger.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
CheeseOfTheDay
[10] Knight
You forget about something. She have very good ss tool in close and mid/close range (C2A/C3A) and tool from mid/far range (C3B) that tracks really good one side and gives her the doom combo. That is good enough, in close close/mid your steps will be very risky, and you cant depend on step-G while guard activates on 14 frame after the step command with it's means that you will not be able to block during 13 frames window.
And what Setsuka have to kill Hilde SS from mid and mid/long range? bA is punishable by C3B = doom combo, A+K A is good but it's risky also, because she cant be hit from it by random C2A and C3A = combo. And while Hilde C3B tracks one side Setska 33B can be sidesteped on both sides.[/quote]
Yes, but in Setska situations its looks almost the same. All Setska lows can be block on reaction except 2K, with means that you will use her throws more often and its a risky game because Hilde can eat this throw but she can also duck and FC C3B = doom combo.
Yes but it will work only on online or vs opponent that cant block it on reaction, when you play with someone who can block it then 1A
A is out of your game because Hilde will doom combo it if she have B3/A3 charges. And 11A is only for SS kill, really slow SS kill we must say.
Runis
Doom Combo is Back!
Cheese - FC C3B doesn't lead to doom, it's FC C2B JFYI.
How good and how safe are Sets' step killer moves? Step kill moves are the key to beating Hilde. From what I can see of the Ceirnian - Manta Hilde-Voldo Matchup, until voldo gets into BT, Hilde can step punish everything on reaction to MOVEMENT.
What sort of step killers does Sets have? What ranges do they work at? How fast and How safe are they? Are they telegraphed?
Is it a High, mid or Low? High's can be ducked, but Hilde doesn't have very good WR punish moves. Mid is the most preferable and lows are possibly the least preferable. I have yet to see a low in the game that is safe enough that if Jumped, doesn't lead to Doom outside of 2A's and 2K's. Granted I think Sets' 1A might be another considering how fast it is.
C2AA and C3A are nasty anti air, especially since both are tech traps into C3B doom combo in ALL directions.
As for punishing Hilde's lows - She has very few usable UNSAFE lows. 33B is one, 1KK is another and 2B+K is the third I can think of off the top of my head. 33B is a poke that you will rarely ever see someone use so most people can't block it on reaction since they almost never see it. 1KK as stated is hard to see since she's standing, and since you can delay the second K, it can be a very useful poke tool. And 2B+K is only ever used in combos.
1A is unsafe but is never used. 1B is a getaway tool and even though it's unsafe, due to range issues it's almost never punished. 2A+K is safe, 2A+B is safe, 11K is safe. 2A+K looks exactly like 44A which is a mid. 2A+B is both a tech trap and gets better combo damage with 2B+K so there's no point in doing the unsafe K after wards unless you're trying to ringout, 11K is usually used to stop rollers. So unless Sets has a 9 frame punish move that has a fair bit of reach, She won't be punishing Hilde's lows. Jumping lows is countering them, not punishing.
How good and how safe are Sets' step killer moves? Step kill moves are the key to beating Hilde. From what I can see of the Ceirnian - Manta Hilde-Voldo Matchup, until voldo gets into BT, Hilde can step punish everything on reaction to MOVEMENT.
What sort of step killers does Sets have? What ranges do they work at? How fast and How safe are they? Are they telegraphed?
Is it a High, mid or Low? High's can be ducked, but Hilde doesn't have very good WR punish moves. Mid is the most preferable and lows are possibly the least preferable. I have yet to see a low in the game that is safe enough that if Jumped, doesn't lead to Doom outside of 2A's and 2K's. Granted I think Sets' 1A might be another considering how fast it is.
C2AA and C3A are nasty anti air, especially since both are tech traps into C3B doom combo in ALL directions.
As for punishing Hilde's lows - She has very few usable UNSAFE lows. 33B is one, 1KK is another and 2B+K is the third I can think of off the top of my head. 33B is a poke that you will rarely ever see someone use so most people can't block it on reaction since they almost never see it. 1KK as stated is hard to see since she's standing, and since you can delay the second K, it can be a very useful poke tool. And 2B+K is only ever used in combos.
1A is unsafe but is never used. 1B is a getaway tool and even though it's unsafe, due to range issues it's almost never punished. 2A+K is safe, 2A+B is safe, 11K is safe. 2A+K looks exactly like 44A which is a mid. 2A+B is both a tech trap and gets better combo damage with 2B+K so there's no point in doing the unsafe K after wards unless you're trying to ringout, 11K is usually used to stop rollers. So unless Sets has a 9 frame punish move that has a fair bit of reach, She won't be punishing Hilde's lows. Jumping lows is countering them, not punishing.
Maxou
[11] Champion
I think I know quite well what I am talking about here, I've got PLENTY of various Hilde experience (3 Hilde in my area :/), stick or pad, charge based or less charge based, I've got them all here :/...
Of course sometimes you have to take risks but it's not like Hilde players were perfect players as well, they make mistakes, they haven't perfect guard just like yours... in reality the risk / reward isn't THAT much for Hilde, just like any other characters, it's dangerous for her to duck, it's dangerous for her to throw steppable stuff ...
You may see it if you get more Hilde experience (not saying you haven't but perhaps you haven't found the way you need to fight her), the character force you to play in a extremely boring way but it's far from unwinnable.
Yes I am talking about step~G. 19/21 frames allow you to step then guard, even if they do C2 AA / C3 A / tracking C3 B. If they do C2 BB / C3 B and you step it, the recovery is quite long if they whiff, it's a free B+K 61B 44B+K. Afterwards it's up to you to stay solid and to know when to step, when to defend, when to attack and when to throw.
Look at it that way :
Long range : Setsu has 66A/A+K A and Hilde .... nothing. Of course 66A can be stepped and A+K A is risky... but if you fear too much you won't do anything and you won't win for sure. 66A is still a very good tool and A+K A can be used. Theory fighting is really different from the truth.
Mid range : this is where the fight will take place most often. Setsuka : 3A, 11A, 66A, 214A, A+K A Hilde : C2 AA / C3 A / C3 B ... and that's all. Her other mid ranged anti step sucks.
The situation isn't that bad IMO, don't forget that you can wait for her to "waste" a charged A move / A move before you step or other things like that...
That's theory fighting man. I didn't use 1AAA before because I thought everyone could see it on reaction but most of the time people don't (even people with really good guard like BlackCat or other people like that). 2A+B can be used too (won't get punished apart from minor punishment). 11A is a very good tool against Hilde too (won't get really punished too).
In the same way you'll sometimes get hit by some lows from hilde too...
And of course she can also duck and FC C2 B you but you can also step her FC C2 B or you can also do a mid move ... it's all in the "also" realm... Besides you won't see that much FC C2 B against Setsuka since she has such powerfull mids in a throw situation and since you train them not to make that much steppable moves... and that's only if they have the C2 B available, and not C3 B or C1 B or no B charge move...
And it's not everytime that a doom combo will get her an instant win.
Believe me it's not unwinnable at all.
Of course sometimes you have to take risks but it's not like Hilde players were perfect players as well, they make mistakes, they haven't perfect guard just like yours... in reality the risk / reward isn't THAT much for Hilde, just like any other characters, it's dangerous for her to duck, it's dangerous for her to throw steppable stuff ...
You may see it if you get more Hilde experience (not saying you haven't but perhaps you haven't found the way you need to fight her), the character force you to play in a extremely boring way but it's far from unwinnable.
Yes I am talking about step~G. 19/21 frames allow you to step then guard, even if they do C2 AA / C3 A / tracking C3 B. If they do C2 BB / C3 B and you step it, the recovery is quite long if they whiff, it's a free B+K 61B 44B+K. Afterwards it's up to you to stay solid and to know when to step, when to defend, when to attack and when to throw.
Look at it that way :
Long range : Setsu has 66A/A+K A and Hilde .... nothing. Of course 66A can be stepped and A+K A is risky... but if you fear too much you won't do anything and you won't win for sure. 66A is still a very good tool and A+K A can be used. Theory fighting is really different from the truth.
Mid range : this is where the fight will take place most often. Setsuka : 3A, 11A, 66A, 214A, A+K A Hilde : C2 AA / C3 A / C3 B ... and that's all. Her other mid ranged anti step sucks.
The situation isn't that bad IMO, don't forget that you can wait for her to "waste" a charged A move / A move before you step or other things like that...
That's theory fighting man. I didn't use 1AAA before because I thought everyone could see it on reaction but most of the time people don't (even people with really good guard like BlackCat or other people like that). 2A+B can be used too (won't get punished apart from minor punishment). 11A is a very good tool against Hilde too (won't get really punished too).
In the same way you'll sometimes get hit by some lows from hilde too...
And of course she can also duck and FC C2 B you but you can also step her FC C2 B or you can also do a mid move ... it's all in the "also" realm... Besides you won't see that much FC C2 B against Setsuka since she has such powerfull mids in a throw situation and since you train them not to make that much steppable moves... and that's only if they have the C2 B available, and not C3 B or C1 B or no B charge move...
And it's not everytime that a doom combo will get her an instant win.
Believe me it's not unwinnable at all.
Aqua_Snake
[09] Warrior
Maxi still has 1 or 2 options to avoid/take advantage of the interruptions from those characters.
Say with Amy's 3A. Like you said, it beats all options from 3B except going into PSL2. However Maxi does free damage to Amy after she does 3A after a blocked 3B with 3B, PSL2> RC A. After a while, you'll hesitate throwing out 3A knowing Maxi gets the free damage. The same goes for X. 3B also eats the SG pretty good too.
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
Honestly i don't think their are many matchups at 8-2...i tihnk that's pushing it a bit. Maxi isn't in anyway RELIANT on 3B in the slightest. Everyone seems to think that having an extreme adv vs maxi is a matter or beating a 3B mixup for some reason, and i don't know why :/
He does have options vs X's 2A and 1B+K btw post 3B anyway, both attacks aren't very threatening (damagewise) either way. Amy's 3A is another example but suffers from range problems. I am more afraid of her autoGI and 6BB speed.
It's not that i don't believe that problems Maxi has vs these characters if you notice my rankings, i just think it's exagerrated cuz people think he's RELIANT on ONE single style of always going into stance to be countered
mikosu
Goderator of pink hearts
In that case I'd give Yun vs Cervy 6:4 in Cervy's favor.
CheeseOfTheDay
[10] Knight
Oh so ok:), this or that, most important that she can do her combo from ws.
good vs most characters, not that good vs Hilde
bA - mid nice speed (18i) and range, track both sides but can be punish by doom combo (-23 on block) so very risky vs good hilde. KND on hit, TC.
66A - high, same speed, bigger range, tracks both sides from far range, and can be easily SS'ed on any side from mid/close close range, safe but you have to block (-8), on hit sets have advantage only (+4)
A+K A – high, little slower, same range, very safe (-3) and very good advantage (+13~14) but usually gives setups only, tracks one side but its about 180 degrees tracking so it can hit opponent when he will make deep ss on her back, TJ but she can be C2/C3 A from it. Decent in this math up but still one of the best.
ws+A - high good speed, mid range and close/mid range if some one will make SS, 100% tracks one side, can be SS'ed on the right side (from close range only). Very good advantage on hit and small disadvantage (-2) on block. TC.
4A - high, as a step killer only close range tool, 100% tracks both sides, safe vs hilde (-10~11) good advantage on hit and very good combo on CH. TC & backdash.
11A - low, veeery slow (29i and 30i if opp will make SS on her right side), tracks both sides very well (still Hilde can step it in both directions by multi step (868686…), but its risky for her so she wont do it), it have fair disadvantage -15-16 but I dont know how hard hilde can punish it, on hit little advantage +2~3 and on CH very good follow up but it’s hard to connect it on CH while this move is so slow and CH frames are only on first 13 frames after making step command with means your opponent need to make his step in about 16 or later frame of 11A execution. So setsu can execute 11A and Hilde can make Step-G 15 frames after it and she still will be able to block it, or if she will not bock it, the CH status of step will ends and 11A will connect on normal hit. TC (also mids on later frames)
1A – low, block able on reaction (22i), small range, cover her left side in 100% can be stepped on her right side by a good stepper like hilde, but its not easy. On block hilde have doom combo, on hit (without JF) setsu have nasty disadvantage (1A -13, 1AA -11).
3A – mid, pretty good but nothing special, safe, advantage, tracks 100% both sides but it takes small dmg, close/mid and close range tool takes some time to exe (21i). TC.
Others like 44A and 6A are not that good as a step killer because Hilde can step those in any direction. Of course there are AA/2A/FCA also, but we don’t need to write about them.
Yes, but everything everywhere is started from theory. You say that all Hilde lows, except two, are blockable on reaction, that’s also theory fighting. Because we know that there are players that can block her lows on reaction and there are players that cant do it, i also know that there are players that can block setska lows on reaction.
And also i know something about taking the risk, i take it even too much sometimes.
I know, thats why for me its 6-4 5-5 in this match up:).