Character Matchup Tier Project

Tiamat

Tiamat

[11] Champion
I made a simple excel table then turned it into a text file so that I can directly upload it here. There was already some discussion about this in the 1.03 Tier thread, but I want this to have its own thread for easy access and hopefully keep it more focused.

You guys can add/discuss/argue about my ranks and add your own for matchups i haven't ranked. mods and/or high level player with respective character can list matchups and I'll add them to the chart

How to Read the Chart:

Read it from left to right. For example, to see Algol matchups, look for Algol on the vertical list then move right. if Algol has a 6, that means he has advantage on the character on the horizontal list directly above him, a 6-4 advantage.

to keep an eye on what level you are on, highlight the character on the left then drag the bar right to make that dark, so you can see where you're looking at

Let me know if you find any errors (like a 6-6 matchup or something, lol).

Updated 3-29-09

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pXgx07JiZcBAHu_o1sTQEbg&hl=en < this one is out of date, too lazy to update it right now
 

Attachments

  • SCIV MATCHUP TIER.txt
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This is my matchups for Hilde. ? means we don't have people who play this character in sydney and I don't know enough about them to form an opinion. Blue means in my opinion this is the matchup, red is the actual matchup in sydney which isn't always people of equal skill level.
ALGOL 6/4 not tested
AMY 5/5?
APPR 6/4 7/3
ASTA 4/6 8/2
CASS 6/4 Not tested
CERV 5/5?
HILDE -
IVY 6/4 3/7
KILIK 4/6?
LIZ 5/5?
MAXI 6/4 5/5
MINA 7/3 4/6
MITSU 6/4 4/6
NM 5/5?
RAPH 6/4 Not tested
ROCK 4/6 Not tested
SETSU 4/6?
SIEG 4/6 1/9
SOPH 6/4?
TAKI 5/5?
TALIM 6/4?
TIRA 6/4 5/5
VADER 4/6 5/5
VOLDO 5/5?
X 6/4 not tested
YODA 3/7 not tested
YOSHI 6/4 not tested
YUN 7/3 9/1
ZAS 6/4?
 
Rock is not as good a matchup Vs Hilde as Astaroth is. Even though Doom combo doesn't work on him, Hilde breaks his 2B+G throw (she floats wrong and can't be combod), can step his bullrush better than other characters (one of his biggest anti-step tools), and can generally slap him around at mid and long range. It's 5/5 at best, in my opinion, probably more like 6/4 or even 7/3. Other Rock players may disagree with me, however.

Only other matchups I feel comfortable with commenting on right now would probably Rock vs Apprentice - 2/8, and, Rock vs Amy - 4/6, and Rock vs Yun - 5/5.
 
I would argue the other way with rock in that he can Crouch throw her C3A, if she breaks a throw, you know exactly which charge she has, and for the next 2 seconds, in reaction to Charge flash, either normal throw or crouch throw depending on which one was broken. Personally I think the best person to comment on this matchup is ShenChan. Since Singapore has both a good Rock (Chan) and a good Hilde (Yuan).
Lau is the other Rock player who might have an opinion on this, but I'm not so sure Chang's Friend is an exceptional Hilde (despite being an exceptional player) and I haven't seen any other Hilde players in their vids..
 
Runis, from the other thread, it appeared to me that your main concern with Sieg is ag:A. But ag:A is a high, and very vulnerable to FC C2B if abused. Sieg vs Hilde isn't in Siegs favor IMO.
 
There's no reason for Hilde to break 2B+G, though. I guess that works both ways, since Rock then knows she's lost the A charge, but even still. It might be even, but there's no way Rock vs Hilde is the same as Astaroth vs Hilde.
 
I want to clarify something for Rock vs Hilde

Are you REALLY talking about crouch throwing her out of C3A? I think that would take a lot of balls to say the least. what if she doesn't do C3A at that exact moment? You whiff a crouch grab and now she can C3A combo you

maybe I'm just being retarded since I play neither character, but that just doesn't sound right to me
 
Crouch throws as a counter C3A sounds like theory craft to me. Does that make all TC moves obsolete against characters with crouch throws?
 
eltoshan:
iagA is High, but at tip range it's unpunishable, even on whiff. It stops step and can be mixed up with B6 etc. Sieg can stop hilde stepping. Hilde can't stop sieg stepping.

Tiamat:
I'm not talking about prediction crouch throw, I'm talking about On Reaction crouch throw.
Yes it's just as bullshit an idea as On reaction GI, but where on reaction GI requires you to time the GI within a 3 frame window, crouch throw has a much larger window since it's based on hitting before C3A finishes. And seriously, lets get Lau or ShenChen to comment on this.
 
Rock isn't that bad against Hilde but crouch throws agains C3A isn't realistic in a serious game.

I'll put my opinion of Setsuka's match up with some remarks when I feel it's needed.

Setsu vs :
Hilde : 5-5 or 6-4, I'll say 5-5 for now. A+K A is a really good tool against her, closing distance, going through her charges, and even if she hits you while jumping she can't doom combo you. Providing Setsuka step~G correctly, a single whiffed move allows her to punish Hilde for 86 dmg. Her good range allow her to zone correctly against Hilde. Still hilde is still hilde, a single mistake and you may lose the round... besides, she has a really nice step so she makes setsuka spam antistep a LOT with the weakness they have (lot of high stuff).
Amy : 6-4
Astaroth : 5-5
Cassandra : 6-4
Cervantes : 5-5? I don't really know since I don't have enough Cervantes experience.
Ivy : 4-6 or 5-5? I'd say 6-4 for Setsuka from my personal experience but some people told me Ivy had the edge against Sets. If someone could give me some insight to this match it would be great.
Kilik : 5-5 or 6-4. Let's say 5-5 for now.
LM : 6-4
Maxi : 6-4
Seung Mina : 7-3
Mitsurugi : 5-5? I suck against him so my opinion may not be right here.
Nightmare : 6-4 or 7-3
Raphael : 6-4
Rock : 7-3
Siegfried : 6-4
Sophitia : 6-4
Taki : 6-4? but I don't have a lot of experience against Taki, so if someone could give me some insight here too... some people in france told it was in Setsuka's favor.
Tira : 6-4 or 7-3. Let's say 6-4.
Voldo : 5-5 or 6-4. Let's say 5-5, the 6-4 is from my personal experience so I may be biaised.
Xianghua : 6-4 or 5-5. I don't know anymore. I though Setsuka had the edge in this match up but the more I play against her, the more I see how solid she is ... Your opinions?
Yoshimitsu : 6-4
Yun- Sung : 7-3
Zas : 6-4
 
Astaroth vs Mitsu is 4 : 6 for mitsu imo, Asta dont punish well on block, Mitsu can use and abuse some of his shits at no or low cost against Astaroth, something he cant do against others chars like Sophie Cass Yoshi Voldo Setsuka etc. Also there is no range where Mitsu is at loss against Astaroth, his tools work at all distance against Astaroth, and he dont rely much on high, making bullrush a bit less effective than in others matchups.


Sorry if i missed it but Tiamat, could you explain to us (and me ! :D) why you think Astaroth vs Nightmare is 6:4 only for Asta ? I remember seeing you talking about an anti Astaroth strat with NM, and in my last FT10 against Keev, he showed me interesting moves for this match up too ... so i'm a bit curious here !
Nevertheless for me it's still a solid 7 / 3, as bullrush close many options, and damage wise Astaroth got the edge in the end imo.
 
Runis said:
Tiamat:
I'm not talking about prediction crouch throw, I'm talking about On Reaction crouch throw.
Yes it's just as bullshit an idea as On reaction GI, but where on reaction GI requires you to time the GI within a 3 frame window, crouch throw has a much larger window since it's based on hitting before C3A finishes.
Click to expand...

I barfed up my lungs just now. What did I ever do to you?!

you wanna do some math and see why that is totally impossible? C3A is i21. crouch grab is 13 frames or something? so you can really react to C3A's animation 8 frames after the hilde player presses the button? so you can duck taki's AA on reaction too?

Saitoh:

Admittedly I have not played vs Asta with NM in this game (well not vs any good ones anyway) so it's mostly just based on my analysis of the two characters (aka theory). I'm also comparing a bit to what they had in SC3 compared to now and thinking about how it is different. In a nutshell
- NM has stronger mids for mixup (but you can just standing block a lot and break grabs)
- Asta has stronger throws for mixup (but you can flinch duck often and worst that happens is you eat a 66K)
- both characters are lame at CF
- both characters have strong RO and damage (asta does a lot more on grabs and random 22Bs)
- NM has better okizeme (better attack flow)

I think Nightmare should be using a lot of iWR and iWR Ks. Asta cannot guaranteed punish WR on block, he gets mixup on nightmare in his favor but if he guesses wrong he will be hit or mixed up. WR K is safe alternative that prevents asta from getting a strong grab mixup, thanks to the block pushback on WR K and backstep G. Nightmare should step/step G often to avoid bullrush. Bullrush (and quite a few other moves) are whiff punishable by 1/4+ life by nightmare. On the other hand, bullrush is a threat that keeps nightmare from using one of his best moves, agA much. Step is very important for Nightmare in this match (as usual). By comparison, Asta's only strong whiff punish is 22B, which is strong damage but cannot be used on reaction to whiffs unless the whiff is really really bad.

page:
I'll add matchups for rock vs amy and rock vs yun in update later. apprentice vs rock you say is 8-2 apprentice advantage. I don't wanna add that yet because I'm automatically skeptical of 8-2 matchups in general. A matchup like this means there is almost no way for the other character to keep up regardless how well he knows the matchup. I know the reason must largely be because of A+B throwbreak, a valid reason. However, have you thoroughly explored other options? Rock's CF ability is better than Apprentice right? His lows are better too aren't they (even if just 2K)? If you re-focus gameplan to use this stuff instead, does apprentice still win 8-2? just some ideas


I see we have setsuka and mitsu matchups posted, like some more opinions for those.
 
Random note: soulcalibur.fr has left out Apprentice in their rankingproject. Do they not allow him?
 
Just a note...

From experience, this thread will probably get really out of hand and impossible to read quickly...I would suggest picking one character and discuss those matchups until people seem to come to a conclusion, then start with another character.

One at a time will be a lot faster...as it is we have opinions on 2.125 characters already...and this is the first page
 
piggy: true

Guys lets focus on Mitsu and Setsuka for now. If you know good mitsu/setsuka players point them here so we can get some ranks worked out.
 
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