Controlling Step

KowtowRobinson said:
, but never did I feel like "omg Raph cannot handle this character/player." Toronto just has very strong competition, and I had good matches with a lot of them. Trust me guys, Raph can compete in this game.
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well then i need suggestions..

Because if opponents just step TC etc he can blatantly ignore any damage you can deal...

Raph not only has huge tracking issue (33KB and 22B were vital to my sc4 style but now they don t track at all and realigning is almost impossible) but also huge DAMAGE issues.


If opponent steps continuosly he know you cannot deal more than few damage whereas you can lose half bar the same.


So basically you have to win "despite raphael" as someone said.

Without also considering tests against alpha pat CPU at higher difficulty.......he can punish for half bar anything o__O
I mean "ok its hard as hell to use" but if someone manage its almost an unwinnable matchup.
 
darkfender said:
well then i need suggestions..
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2A, 3A (if they step to your right) 8A+B (seriously, learn to use this move) and B+K (most QS TC moves are gonna be 33B / 22B so B+K will probably save you). aGI / evade seem to be necessary to Raph's game and I think we'll need to find when and where they can be used to save you from certain expected setups / high damage ridiculousness (Pyrra 66B, etc.).

From what I've seen so far, Raph is pretty good at controlling space and setting the pace of the match, but he doesn't have an easy button, or a combo that you just wanna setup for big damage, so you've gotta use all the tools available.
 
mmm maybe my problem is i cannot use B+K >.>

need some high level video asap .-. to see how people plays raph.

I manage to decide where opponent should be and what he should do....but i lose to raw damage...mostly because i miss old 22B and 33KB tracking or AB advantage.
 
Don't forget, if they're going to automatically step + TC attack you, you can just delay your vertical mids a tick and CH them. They have to stop moving to do an attack, after all.
 
i m getting back my 33KB from scIV it has a different timing in order to whiff punish >.> or kill step
Now i'm having more problems against alexandra's 236B even on hit they can kill your preps

Well i am playing against people that have months of experience having helped in beta testing etc....but most of them know exactly how to shut down raph game.
 
Im doing finnneee so far. Even after tellng my opponents what to do and how to evade Raphs linear style. Raph is not an easy character to use effectively. If you're not gonna get or be creative, I suggest you go play an Alexander!
 
what i say its quite worse...
Its frustrating when French who got the game months ago AND knows raphael, shows you how they can ignore raphs laughable damage and just use 2 patterns on prediction (i.e. TC randomly) to win with simple risk/reward unbalance.

Kudos to them but its very very very frustrating working hard to land 20 damages and risk to get hit for 100+...you can hit them 4 times but just if they win the chance game 1 out of 5 you lose.

Prep deals no damage on CH now, 4B is trash 44AB deals no damage and its terribad on block....preps can be killed easily even on CH....(entering SE is impossible at ANY distance but even if you do....they ll easily know SEA is the only option and even at CH if ranged correctly for them its not even a threat).

I'll say it clear maybe i suck, maybe i cannot understand scV raphael, but if i don t land a 22B or a 33KB i can t seem to deal any damage...i still can react, TC, and defend very well but that is not enough when u lose in 2 hits.
As i say they simply ignore raph damage....

I am frustrated with raph how i never have been before...



P.S. i think this video
http://8wayrun.com/media/smash-up-2-sc5-raynex-vs-kowtow.3293/
sums up what i am saying despite i obviously i am not theplayer...
If pat player simply abused more 2K (+2 on hit), step and TC punish, without eating some stuns that could easily be avoided it would show how boring is fighting with and against raph :(
And namco said scIV matchs were boring for spectators
 
darkfender said:
P.S. i think this video
http://8wayrun.com/media/smash-up-2-sc5-raynex-vs-kowtow.3293/
sums up what i am saying despite i obviously i am not theplayer...
If pat player simply abused more 2K (+2 on hit), step and TC punish, without eating some stuns that could easily be avoided it would show how boring is fighting with and against raph :(
And namco said scIV matchs were boring for spectators
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Other more experienced Patroklos players did try what you're suggesting to me (not with 2k, which is negative on hit, you're thinking about 1k being +2 and that's not a TC move), and I did exactly what I said to do. I stepped back and punched them in the mouth with a delayed 3b for trying it. Talented players like Partisan did beat me a lot, but it wasn't by doing one or two "anti-Raph" things. It was them adjusting, me adjusting, and in the end they came out on top by being a more solid player.

I'm telling you, I beat good players with Raph, lost to other good players with Raph, but none of that was indicative of Raph NOT being able to win. You have clung to this notion that "_______ strategy beats Raph hands down" and it's simply not true at the higher levels of gameplay.
 
well my problem is not losing....
What i am saying is:
if raph have no threats....instead of relying on those tools doing the same with O phyrra will net me more damage with the same strategy.

And that's imho quite wrong.
I expecially cannot understand what's the use now for 44AB
 
darkfender said:
well my problem is not losing....
What i am saying is:
if raph have no threats....instead of relying on those tools doing the same with O phyrra will net me more damage with the same strategy.

And that's imho quite wrong.
I expecially cannot understand what's the use now for 44AB
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Highlighted because you can't seem to let go of the fact that you're not playing with strategy. You should play astaroth if thats the type of game play you seem to have grown an attachment for. Trading shot for shot is NOT raph's game and it never was. If that is what you want to do you will lose for sure with Raph.
With your reach and speed, you should be able to switch from strat to strat faster and at opportunities few other characters can have.

The pyrrha is trying to do the ol' step, TC, step, TC ? back step that and punish! If she tries to close the gap, you can intercept with 6BB(BE)! Sounds basic, but you'd be surprised at how much damage you get when your opponents are caught changing their gameplan, as opposed to trying to find a "silver bullet" to their pressure.
 
well i really didn t understand last post >.>

What i did in scIV:
poke, align, punish everything.

Now everyone said we cannot do that no more....
Opponent step G continuosly ....i didn t find a way to align like scIV before they have teh chance of attacking
i have 22A and 2K, 4K if ranged

Other things would be interrupted.
3B is a suicide on block (can be punished consistently in any mixup) so if i am not 100% sure of hitting i'd better avoid it


6BBBE is one of the best scV tools we have i use it EVERY chance i have....but opponent seldom is -12 playing that way and backstep doesn t work due to increased range of other characters....



OT: considering raph cannot break guard in few hits, may i open a thread about guard break and post guard break mixups?
 
Try the general discussion (i'm thinking about closing the tech trap thread in a short while), since his guard burst game is really straight forward.

6BB(BE) has its counters, but its not going to be stepped or GI'd always so breaking from yellow is an insane advantage.
 
ups i meant what to use when their guard is broken and you get a free attack....
They translated scV (and sounds like "all your bases" meme) so in don t recall the right definition
 
JodorowskyVIII said:
The last hit is stepped pretty consistently when they know the move. :/
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yeah its pretty easy in training, but considering how far raph will continue with the last attack not every character can punish him. However, the window (probably a bug) to do so can be massive. I once fit in a 8A+B to aGI the last thrust in an online raph mirror.. which normally I cannot replicate.
 
KowtowRobinson said:
Other more experienced Patroklos players did try what you're suggesting to me (not with 2k, which is negative on hit, you're thinking about 1k being +2 and that's not a TC move), and I did exactly what I said to do. I stepped back and punched them in the mouth with a delayed 3b for trying it. Talented players like Partisan did beat me a lot, but it wasn't by doing one or two "anti-Raph" things. It was them adjusting, me adjusting, and in the end they came out on top by being a more solid player.

I'm telling you, I beat good players with Raph, lost to other good players with Raph, but none of that was indicative of Raph NOT being able to win. You have clung to this notion that "_______ strategy beats Raph hands down" and it's simply not true at the higher levels of gameplay.
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You played pretty well against that Patroklos. It seems that delaying your attacks in prep works against step because you interrupted a fair amount of attacks in those matches and on wakeup using 22A at maximum range was working as well.
 
WuHT said:
yeah its pretty easy in training, but considering how far raph will continue with the last attack not every character can punish him. However, the window (probably a bug) to do so can be massive. I once fit in a 8A+B to aGI the last thrust in an online raph mirror.. which normally I cannot replicate.
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We can be hit by a i32 move after the sidestep, and if the opponent Just Guard, he got enough time to dash and backthrow Raph, i've tested it at 6BB max range too.
Fortunately, at max range, there is a chance the BE last-multihit is not JustGuard in the sequence, throwing off guard the opponent.
 
Something i found out and have used for great setups. ended up being the second in Finlands Championship yesterday with turnout of 47 players.

Not sure if others have found this out yet but if you get a run counter with 2A you can get a 6BB out before the other player can step again, also if they try to duck the 6BB you will do Full crouch 3B for a stun. after they learn you have these options you can start to do allot of other stuff and the players will get locked down waiting for one or the other from these two options. 6BB can be blocked ofcourse but some characters cant punish 6BB on block before you get to prep mix ups like Prep 4/2
 
Me too, mostly just been 2Aing until they block it, or maybe 2 or 3 2A into WR B. More damage is always good!
 
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