StrayDogStrut
[09] Warrior
I'm a scrub.
Elitists, and Why We Need Them
- Thread starter iKotomi
- Start date
kPc
[09] Warrior
elites- extremely good players
elitests- people that think highly of themselves whether they be good or not at the game
I personally believe that this community needs people categories for players or as some have already put it, discrimination. why? Because not everyone is on the same skill level and for those that are not as good as a said player that is even good, they have something to strive for. No one that just started this game is going to be even close to an elite. It takes time, alot of ass whoopings by GOOD PLAYERS, and the time and patience and sure will to want to be better at this game. Yes we all look for a good time and thats very much possible but do not forget this is a competition. To be the top player for various reasons:
-To win money
-To get free shit
-To be recognized by the community
-And the sheer satisfaction knowing you are a top player
Some people play only for 1 reason while others play for more or all. either way if you dont like the whole "segregation", more often than not your just a mediocre player that doesnt really care in getting better but likes to go to tournaments because they are fun and you get to meet new people. Thats fine. But there are other players that want to know "Who is the best with blah character?", "Who are the top in the EC,WC,North and South?", "How can I be top?, ect ect. I personally love it, adds substance to gaming. No sport was created to give everyone trophies just for participating and gaming shouldnt be different. If I dont place top 3 then being called good sure was better than nothing.....
elitests- people that think highly of themselves whether they be good or not at the game
I personally believe that this community needs people categories for players or as some have already put it, discrimination. why? Because not everyone is on the same skill level and for those that are not as good as a said player that is even good, they have something to strive for. No one that just started this game is going to be even close to an elite. It takes time, alot of ass whoopings by GOOD PLAYERS, and the time and patience and sure will to want to be better at this game. Yes we all look for a good time and thats very much possible but do not forget this is a competition. To be the top player for various reasons:
-To win money
-To get free shit
-To be recognized by the community
-And the sheer satisfaction knowing you are a top player
Some people play only for 1 reason while others play for more or all. either way if you dont like the whole "segregation", more often than not your just a mediocre player that doesnt really care in getting better but likes to go to tournaments because they are fun and you get to meet new people. Thats fine. But there are other players that want to know "Who is the best with blah character?", "Who are the top in the EC,WC,North and South?", "How can I be top?, ect ect. I personally love it, adds substance to gaming. No sport was created to give everyone trophies just for participating and gaming shouldnt be different. If I dont place top 3 then being called good sure was better than nothing.....
iKotomi
[10] Knight
The way I see it, the single defining characteristic of an elitist is the belief the refusal to be mediocre. This is no way mutually exclusive with being an asshole, idiot, retard, etc.
One interesting example brought up was WoW. Yes, there are a lot of asshole elitists that suck at the game. But if you look at any top level raiding guild, you see one unifying characteristic. They don't tolerate mistakes by anyone. If you don't pull your weight, you knew you were a liability. Nobody uses junk potions to save money, nobody raids in their sub-par grinding/pvp spec, everybody has the necessary professions to min/max everything (enchanting, leatherworking, etc.) The fact of the matter is, to really be a contender, you can not just say, "Everybody, you're all very good, do whatever you want" because the fact of the matter is, most people suck really bad. Especially in WoW...I never quite understand how people can be so bad at such an easy game.
It may be that I'm mixing up elitist and elite. But the way I see it, you don't have to be an elite to be an elitist, or vice versa. You just have to have the attitude that the way the majority of people do things is not the best way things should be done. I'm not arguing that everyone should be an elitist, I'm just arguing that elitists often times have something important to say that the majority of people don't want to say/hear.
One interesting example brought up was WoW. Yes, there are a lot of asshole elitists that suck at the game. But if you look at any top level raiding guild, you see one unifying characteristic. They don't tolerate mistakes by anyone. If you don't pull your weight, you knew you were a liability. Nobody uses junk potions to save money, nobody raids in their sub-par grinding/pvp spec, everybody has the necessary professions to min/max everything (enchanting, leatherworking, etc.) The fact of the matter is, to really be a contender, you can not just say, "Everybody, you're all very good, do whatever you want" because the fact of the matter is, most people suck really bad. Especially in WoW...I never quite understand how people can be so bad at such an easy game.
It may be that I'm mixing up elitist and elite. But the way I see it, you don't have to be an elite to be an elitist, or vice versa. You just have to have the attitude that the way the majority of people do things is not the best way things should be done. I'm not arguing that everyone should be an elitist, I'm just arguing that elitists often times have something important to say that the majority of people don't want to say/hear.
Pazuzuxul
[08] Mercenary
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Art_Thritis
[08] Mercenary
The OP's premise fixates upon differentiating between elite and mediocre but misses a self-evident point. What separates the two for the most part is dedication. Natural aptitude and experience comes into play but a dedicated player will rise above mediocrity. In application, his post misses the mark b/c the venue that he chooses to preach in is filled with dedicated players hence mediocrity for the most part is absent. Within the strata of dedicated players, there will be levels of excellence but stating that a dedicated community such as this is plagued by mediocrity seems incorrect on many levels.
BlackDragon37
[12] Conqueror
As humans, we should all know full well that discrimination stems from fear, and that fear is instinctive.
Don't ask for the impossible, please.
kthxbai
kPc
[09] Warrior
I highly doubt fear has anything to do with this. Not everyone can be equal in this game. This is due to many factors. Dedication, people that others practice with (though there have been some exceptions to this), Reaction time, knowledge of the game, the time to play it, how well they do at tournaments, ect. Therefore people can pick out the good players and keep them in mind when they see their name in future tournaments. Now this is for competitive purposes. If you just want to play for fun then there are others way to go about it.
Hot Rod Dave
"Saucy saucy minx"
some of the best teachers, bosses, coworkers or what ever, that I have ever had, were the hardest dickheads to work for. but you know what, those are the guys that taught me the most. Ikotomi had really really good points in that post. I own a brake and alignment shop in san diego. I am FAMOUS for being very hard to work for. cause IM constant jumping down your throat (like ikotomi said) I demand excellence!! But at the same time I never give up on someone that has the potential. If your some punk kid in high scholl that wants to work on cars, guess what, Im gonna hand you a broom and a rag, and your gonna clean my shop. But along the way I will teach you things to help you if you show you are capable of doing so.
I am by no means an "elitist" when it comes to this game. Im a learner and a follower (for now) but I have the drive to be better. And you wont find a post of mine that says anything like Im the best, you suck type shit. I have a certain respect for people that have put hardwork and time into something they love and are good at it. And Im greatful when I get advice from people like that.
Not everyone has the patience to teach. not everyone has the patience to learn. But everyone learns different. I personally like a hard ass for a teacher. But then there are the people that cant handle that sort of thing and cry and get all butthurt and go cry to mamma. Those are the ones that do not have the drive to be better. They just wanted acceptance. And I agree that such "mediocraty" is not welcomed at a high level tourney type play.
But you gotta maybe think of this from a different point of view. We ALL need this community to survive. and by survive meaning we need more people to get on board with what we do. If you think of it as a business (which I do i a weird sort of way) the more customers you have, the more successful you will be. I dont have a good answer on how to handle shit talkin scrubs (maybe those are customers you dont want anyway being that will not contribute anything of value to anyone) nor do I think anyone does for that matter. But the "elitists" have a tendancy to look down on us "scrubs" and treat them poorly without any real reason to. When I first started on this site. I wanted to play the big boys to really get an evaluation on my game. But was to timid to jump in there and start asking randonm people I dont know to play with me. Now its different. I worked slowly and gained respect of the others first and then made my move. Some people are just down right disrespectful to those seeking help, when we all have a common ground, we love soul calibur! Why not spread the love? I do. If I get compliments while playing online (which is frowned upon, I know, but its all I got) I will point them to this site. so they can gain some of the knowledge that I have. I thank those who have given me that knowledge.
So ikotomi I agree with you. We DO need the elitists. they are the ones the spend day in and day out perfecting what they love. there should be a bit more respect for those guys. We SHOULD take what they say with a grain of salt and try to figure out what it is they are saying. we are all men here (for the most part) suck it the fuck up and quit snivlein. But at the same time, the elitist should realize that there are guys like me that are not as good, but have the drive to be better. We dont need as much respect as you guys should get, but.......a little more thumbs up to the scrubs would generate a bigger community, higher paying tourneys, and a better environment that everyone can benefit from!!!
I am by no means an "elitist" when it comes to this game. Im a learner and a follower (for now) but I have the drive to be better. And you wont find a post of mine that says anything like Im the best, you suck type shit. I have a certain respect for people that have put hardwork and time into something they love and are good at it. And Im greatful when I get advice from people like that.
Not everyone has the patience to teach. not everyone has the patience to learn. But everyone learns different. I personally like a hard ass for a teacher. But then there are the people that cant handle that sort of thing and cry and get all butthurt and go cry to mamma. Those are the ones that do not have the drive to be better. They just wanted acceptance. And I agree that such "mediocraty" is not welcomed at a high level tourney type play.
But you gotta maybe think of this from a different point of view. We ALL need this community to survive. and by survive meaning we need more people to get on board with what we do. If you think of it as a business (which I do i a weird sort of way) the more customers you have, the more successful you will be. I dont have a good answer on how to handle shit talkin scrubs (maybe those are customers you dont want anyway being that will not contribute anything of value to anyone) nor do I think anyone does for that matter. But the "elitists" have a tendancy to look down on us "scrubs" and treat them poorly without any real reason to. When I first started on this site. I wanted to play the big boys to really get an evaluation on my game. But was to timid to jump in there and start asking randonm people I dont know to play with me. Now its different. I worked slowly and gained respect of the others first and then made my move. Some people are just down right disrespectful to those seeking help, when we all have a common ground, we love soul calibur! Why not spread the love? I do. If I get compliments while playing online (which is frowned upon, I know, but its all I got) I will point them to this site. so they can gain some of the knowledge that I have. I thank those who have given me that knowledge.
So ikotomi I agree with you. We DO need the elitists. they are the ones the spend day in and day out perfecting what they love. there should be a bit more respect for those guys. We SHOULD take what they say with a grain of salt and try to figure out what it is they are saying. we are all men here (for the most part) suck it the fuck up and quit snivlein. But at the same time, the elitist should realize that there are guys like me that are not as good, but have the drive to be better. We dont need as much respect as you guys should get, but.......a little more thumbs up to the scrubs would generate a bigger community, higher paying tourneys, and a better environment that everyone can benefit from!!!
soakrates
[09] Warrior
iKotomi:
Again, the pith of your statement rings true, but I think you're still a little off the mark with your definition of elitism. It is almost by definition an exclusionary practice. Colloquially at least, it's less about shunning mediocrity itself and more about shunning those individuals deemed by the "elite" to be mediocre. Big difference, but I agree that a certain degree of elitism can have its benefits.
In NorCal, for example, we're typically willing to help out even the least inexperienced players as long as they show some measure of commitment to improvement. But it's not a constantly congratulatory, you-did-your-best circle jerk, either.
Again, the pith of your statement rings true, but I think you're still a little off the mark with your definition of elitism. It is almost by definition an exclusionary practice. Colloquially at least, it's less about shunning mediocrity itself and more about shunning those individuals deemed by the "elite" to be mediocre. Big difference, but I agree that a certain degree of elitism can have its benefits.
In NorCal, for example, we're typically willing to help out even the least inexperienced players as long as they show some measure of commitment to improvement. But it's not a constantly congratulatory, you-did-your-best circle jerk, either.
The Landslide
[13] Hero
Being Elite and an Elitist are two ENTIRELY different things, and that is why we are arguing here.
iKotomi believes in the Elite that demand dedication, excellence, and hard work. He said Elitist, however, and that word implies ANY level of skill while at the same time being a shit-shoveling jackass. Ya done messed up, son. Elite is what you want.
iKotomi believes in the Elite that demand dedication, excellence, and hard work. He said Elitist, however, and that word implies ANY level of skill while at the same time being a shit-shoveling jackass. Ya done messed up, son. Elite is what you want.
A_Bad_Idea
[09] Warrior
I think there's some misunderstanding in my post as well. When I talk about positive encouragement, I'm not talking about sugarcoating things and handing out gold stars. I mean that there's no need to categorize people as "mediocre", even if they are. Telling someone that they are "incorrect" and telling someone that they are "bad" are two different things, even if you mean well. Maybe I'm just too nice of a guy, maybe it's the way I was raised, but I don't believe in "no pain, no gain". I don't understand why it was ever implied that being a nice guy was a bad thing, but I just think that it's easier to communicate when people are willing to listen, and when you go about calling people "mediocre", people are just generally not willing to listen.
Obviously there are two extremes on the end of each spectrum. Yes I understand that being "too nice" doesn't help anyone, because then no flaws are recognized, but a good teacher with a positive outlook knows how to point out flaws without being demeaning. And obviously, there are extreme elitists who choose to exclude the unlearned from their scope of elitism, but a strong teacher with a hardened outlook has ways to at least show his pupils that he does care for their growth, even through harsh words. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there needs to be some empathy involved in how we communicate with each other. If we want people to be committed, we have to give them encouragement to be committed.
I don't know. Maybe I'm just crazy.
Obviously there are two extremes on the end of each spectrum. Yes I understand that being "too nice" doesn't help anyone, because then no flaws are recognized, but a good teacher with a positive outlook knows how to point out flaws without being demeaning. And obviously, there are extreme elitists who choose to exclude the unlearned from their scope of elitism, but a strong teacher with a hardened outlook has ways to at least show his pupils that he does care for their growth, even through harsh words. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there needs to be some empathy involved in how we communicate with each other. If we want people to be committed, we have to give them encouragement to be committed.
I don't know. Maybe I'm just crazy.
Hot Rod Dave
"Saucy saucy minx"
here is a thread that I made just a few weeks ago. this is one end of the "elitist" spectrum that can come as a result of people that are TO FAR up there on thier high horse
http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/8way-run-then-now-t2081/
http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/8way-run-then-now-t2081/
LeftHandLead
[08] Mercenary
Add me and we'll see how "Elite" you are, trick.
D_Matt_Ma
[10] Knight
I'm an elitist. Last time I checked, I had better sportsmanship than most of the "normal folk."
KowtowRobinson
[10] Knight
Yeah not a bad idea, but I think just changing the language as certain people suggested would go a long way. I suggested a while back we find a more welcoming title for something like the "newbie silencer" thread, just to see if we could come up with more positive language.
Even if what you say is right, and even if the concept is sound and well intentioned, the language you use goes a long way in determining how various people read it.
Even if what you say is right, and even if the concept is sound and well intentioned, the language you use goes a long way in determining how various people read it.
Karnj
[08] Mercenary
We Need Elites, but Not Elitism!
That's really just a play on words, considering even retards are human and can feel emotions. I'm also not sure if that even helps the thread at all.
Plume
[09] Warrior
It doesn't.
It's just a picture used by several sheep who believe whatever they're told.
Karnj
[08] Mercenary
We Need Elites, but Not Elitism!
Upa
[09] Warrior
Wallz of Text crits me for over 9000, im glad im not an elitist, If i had to SERIOUSLY take the time outta my day to explain to everyone why im so cool i would be a sad panda.
jesus seriously? you had to write that???? my god...
jesus seriously? you had to write that???? my god...