Hilde's Tier w/o Combo?

I'm signing up with the Belial and Malek school of thought here. Making a character harder to use does not fix the issue. They still have a list of signature attacks with no direct counter. Just looking at the way Hilde had to be beat at last years evo is kind of an indication somethings wrong. Only about 6 moves were used the entire match to fight her. You have more valid options against Yoda than you do Hilde.
 
As malek and belial mentioned, in high level gameplay, "good" Hilde players (as any other player using any other character) will try to use/abuse their best weapons, one way or the other...

If Hilde played very abusively, you CAN'T even damage her.
She can play well both offensively (advantage on block, auto-GIs etc) AND defensively (steping sides/back causing force-whiffs etc).
How can you damage Hilde If she is always safe (not to mention that most times she has even advantage on block...lol)?
- Punish one of her moves that you blocked?
She doesn't have to use any unsafe move.
- Steping her is another method...BUT you still RISKING
- Grabbing her is also another way...BUT you still RISKING
- Running towards her all the time trying for a mid/low mixup?
Even then she is at the same potition as you. Even then you are ALSO inside her mixup.

What is VERY important and MOST people seem to forget...or don't just want to discuss, is that:
While there IS a way for most characters to beat Hilde. While there ARE some strategies to take her down, some of them risky, others riskier and others...MUCH riskier.
There are ALSO many ways and strategies for Hilde to face the rest of the cast. Hilde players can also develope their own strategies to beat any other character. However, I don't know If there is a single Hilde player that has ever attempted to do that. Why? Because most Hilde players really don't need any specific strategies. They just use a simple recipe and guess what...It works!!!
However, If a Hilde player DOES know the perfect way/strategies/weaknesses of any "X" character in the game, then it's very easy to apply his gameplay accordingly and just...win.
 
When i fight a great hilde by the third round my SG is flashing red you have too be very defensive in outside stages. Inside stages i beat that bitch down going all out offensive. But aggressive hilde's are the toughest you may also find yourself getting grab by hilde a lot from holding guard.
 
dittO said:
However, If a Hilde player DOES know the perfect way/strategies/weaknesses of any "X" character in the game, then it's very easy to apply his gameplay accordingly and just...win.[/B]
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This goes for every character in the game.

Belial and Malek are correct. After I tested out no bind use of a/b moves I completely dismissed the arguement that binds make her infinitely more powerful. Even after 15 minutes of practice i was getting pretty good at tap g release charge use 2a /throw etc. Making her a bit harder to use isn't going to suddenly make her ringouts less deadly. After all this time people are still discussing this dumb shit?
 
So lets do some math, assuming you're FUCKING GODLIKE

To release charge A into 2A.

Held A Charge
Press G + 1 frame
Release A+G + 1 frame
Pause 1 frame to let the game register + 1 frame
Press 2A

So that's 3 frames added to your execution. You have an i17 2A. Congratulations.

Now assuming you're just REALLY GOOD as opposed to FUCKING GODLIKE, you can probably add like a additional frame to each of those actions. So now you have an i20 2A. Good job.
 
You are correct.

But there is no reason to use 2A.
Anf if you want to use it,
1. 2A can be used once you are hit (so, at disadvantage) because you want to stop your opponent to attack you.
2. Or right after a C3A/C2B or any move that leave you at advantage.
So, you just have to release A/B when you are hit(1), or during your move(2) and then no delay to use 2A.

Same goes for all others moves and throws.

But yes, if you want to use 2A without bind, this is going to take more frame.
But, is this really important ? You have so much more to do than 2A.
C2A, C3A, FC C2B, C2B, C3B, FC C3B.
Why do you want to use 2A anyway ?

I agree with most of the post I've read from Singapore player's.
The way to plays against her, the problems of the Hilde players without bind.
But it's not because some move became harder to use than Hilde become less powerfull.
Particularly if the moves are 2A, 4B+K,...
The main problem is her C3A, FC C2B, C2B, C3B and with or without bind they are still here.

That's why I think to forbid bind will not change anything for Hilde.
That is my opinion, you have yours.

Ps:
And also, because I use bind and I don't want them to be banned ^_^
 
However, If a Hilde player DOES know the perfect way/strategies/weaknesses of any "X" character in the game, then it's very easy to apply his gameplay accordingly and just...win.
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When Hilde player would even NEED to know at least something about opponent character to win, would be the happiest day in community life.

And no, you dont need 2A or something. Thank you for taking time describing how to "deal" with hilde in the other thread ShenYuan, but this strategy is just as gimick as anything else. When reward is absolute there is no need for strategy, a slight adaptation or just a tweak in pattern is enough.
 
The purpose of my input was just do describe how playing with no binds can be harder than playing with binds. I hope I did not imply in anyway that Hilde with no binds is not stupid. In fact, I still think its darn stupid. So yeah i am pretty clear i did not say anything that would mean Hilde is NOT stupid just because she becomes substantially harder to play. Just less stupid and more manageable than many players make it out to be. Thats all i hoped to show.

Shen Yu/Ou/Chan: I'd appreciate that you guys not talk about the Hilde things. Most of what you are mentioning is surface knowledge. Accurate, but not comprehensive.

Belial: I don't think the reward is absolute. The most we can do is lower the probability. And I feel that that is very important.

Thank you for the mature responses. I will respect these opinions.
 
When Hilde player would even NEED to know at least something about opponent character to win, would be the happiest day in community life.
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True, true
Because that would mean that even she'd have to try.

I guess one of the many points mentioned already, is that in the end, yes, there are decent (still risky) strategies against Hilde, however, as much as you must be carefull while you are facing an offensive Hilde the same dangers/risks exist against a defensive Hilde. Some times a successfull sidestep may be fatal.

Anyway, I think pretty much everything that should be said, has been said.
Only just that the fact that the international community has been split in half for that particular matter is just enough reason for most that there is something wrong with this character. In the end it's still not the first nor the last time that such decisions (bans etc) have been made in various fighting games.

Although the thing with SCIV's situation is that this decision was made very late. I don't know whether or not this act will revive this game or not.
 
Belial: I don't think the reward is absolute. The most we can do is lower the probability. And I feel that that is very important.
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Instant win = absolute reward. Isnt it?
As a side note: I like mathmathical approach to the game and I also has been playing long enough to separate useless theory (which brings ill-fame to so-called "theory-fighting") and useful one. So what I do when I face a dilemma in a game is sit down and do some math, then do some adjustments according to psycology and my experience and try to work it out in next session and see how it turns out. And fun thing is, even on walled stage, damage evaluations for Hilde is ridiculous.
But lets get back for a sec. Minimizing the risks only mean something as long as you can keep the reward ratio high enough. Minimizing the risks at the cost of decreasing damage opportunities is useless. (i.e. risking big once to deal 50% damage and risking small 5 times to deal 10% each time is basically the same risk)
Also what makes EVERY strategy appliable only as a gimick is that you cannot depend on any kind of mix-up as your primary damage dealer, and most of the times have to capitalize on your opponents mistake and flaws in general gameplan.
Good strategy should feature a potent mix up, that, given opportunity to apply required number of times, should aquire victory. Mix up is something, your opponent cannot defend against with a monotonous defence. Something, he has to take risks while defending against.
Apply your strats here and see there is no such thing against Hilde. So every strategy is a gimmick. So it basically will come down to just how much reward can a gimick strategy provide. While some characters can hope for a quick resolution (and yes, they will be taking lots of risk in the process) in their favor, simply outguessing in a somthing like 3 to 1 ratio, other's have to outguess twice as much. Now consider how much consecutively correct guesses you will need to win and just by simple statistic see it's improbable. That's exactly why it may be possible to win 1 match against hilde, but nearly impossible to win a FT 5. And might I add, that "guessing correctly" has never had anything to do with skill. It's pure luck, or gamble.

I can adress the other part of common delusion about minimizing risks and "never doing mistakes". I think I've already adressed part of what "mistake" is in the above text. From certain pointview EVERYTHING is mistake vs Hilde. There can be a calculatable situations (i.e. C3B on block) which allow to punish opponent for being predictable (i.e. 1A will interrupt C3A), but if you consider your opponent can jump over 1A and RO you, this suddenly no longer has "little risk". All he need to to is to read your, already limited by C3A, decision.
But that is not what I wished to talk about, but that initial concept of doing that kind of "mistakes" is hard coded in human brain, that is, by brain being a pattern-based "machine". In game (SC) you dont have time to ponder about your decicions and take everything into account. More than anything your "patterns" will fire accordingly to estimate of situation. I dont know if you hope to create a specific responce to every situation at every possible angle of the arena (refering to spacing issue) , which is highly unlikely, but even if you can it will still will not work quite as well.
I.e. inside your brain you have a pattern template called *C3B on guard*, which has a subtemplate *C3B on guard with your back to the RO* , those patterns have a hierarchy - one of them is more likely to fire than the other, based of, generally, how often you use either. Meaning, that once you lose concentration (which happen with anybody quite often) , pattern with highest priority will fire = mistake = ring out.

I tried to make it as simple as I could, I'm still not sure if it's understandable.
I still believe Hilde is beatable with some characters, but is a chore to do so. It is not fun.
I find dealing with overwhelming power with skill - challenging. Having to deal with overwhelming power with luck - frustrating and stupid.
I'm okay with people who are fond of the latter. But they and me - are not playing the same game.

I still believe Hilde does not encompass good, or smart play. I think her tools are too good to develop strategies and matchup knowledge. Some people may do this, but eventually same reasons and notions of risk/reward as I described kick in, and very little of what is considered actual skill is left. Her kind of step, where you can step anything to either side, or backdash anything - also doesnt enforce learning and knowledge.
I find Hilde simple and uninteresting to use and play. I believe only people who love to WIN, not actually PLAY - pick her. I know Sirlin's book influenced a lot of minds, but in its core, I believe there is something seriously wrong with people who wish to "win no matter what" in a videogame. Some people just enjoy being esteemed better than the others, but some enjoy actually outperforming others.
I'm totally okay with the former, but they and me - are not playing the same game.

The reason for this wall of text is that I just felt like making an excuse for my, somewhat, scrub mentality. But those who know me and played me, know I always was and am, a hard working player. Always striving to step my game up and get over my losses. I know I've offended many Hilde players with my posts. Maybe after they read this they will understand me better, and forgive me or think of me as yet another scrub (at least in mind).

My offer at proving that two years of holding down the buttons havent made a good player off anyone still stands though. If you're up to an eye-opener on your real skill. My Yun Seong vs your secondary whatever it may be (by WGC rules) FT 10 where you only need to win 4. I'd put money on this by your demand.
 
My 2 Cents (It doesn't matter to you all anyway)


Let's be honest:

Each of us has a basic strategy for each character we play against and most of the strategies are pretty similar with some adjustments depending on range. We don't have to change alot from it.

However against Hilde, like it or not, we can't fight the stupid old same way. We are forced to change. I can't do things which i can safely say "I CAN DO TO THE REST OF THE CAST" to Hilde. Why? Like what Belial said, "C3B template in my head". Movement gets restricted, moves get restricted, making a single move actually introduce more RISKS compared to the rest of the cast. Which other character has this? None. Sorry but i'm comparing the risk vs rewards to the rest of the cast here. Can Talim/Setsuka/NM/Mitsu/Rock/Astaroth/Raphael/Yun/Sieg/Tira/Voldo/Soph/Cass/Lizard/Amy/Kilik/XiangHua/Zas ring you out from "Infinity and beyond"? The point is: Against Hilde, you just need a lapse in concentration for like 2 seconds, and there off you go. And it not only has RO distance, the Doom combo is freaking Half Life. Against the rest, at the most you just eat a launcher that does 30%.

I don't know how far the US and French communities have progressed with Hilde, but i can say that she's still a monster without her charges. Like what Malek and Belial mention, her movement (She can step Mitsu's 33A), even her pokes. IMHO, it doesn't matter if you bind or don't bind, as a competitor, we have to take it professionally. However, a Hilde without binds will have disadvantage when breaking COMMAND throws and yes only them.

Yuan: I'm just gonna talk about her generally. Well not that it matters :)
 
Belial:

I ain't offended at all! I encourage disagreements if they are logical, and are delivered in a mature manner.

I agree with you in these points:
In general, Hilde players do not need to work on as much matchup knowledge. In general.

It might not be fun, albeit for different reasons.

I also think that I am on the same wavelength as you as far as playing the game is concerned. I play my characters with the intent of expressing my personality, developing a unique style, having fun with the game and becoming the best I can be with my main characters.

However, I disagree on many points with you, as far as what it means by a good strategy, and the importance of mixup. However, Im sure we would be able to demonstrate our points when we meet.

I admit that I am still thinking carefully about a good number of points you have made.

I appreciate the time invested in the wall of text.

Regarding the challenge. Lets make it a first to 5, Yun vs Sieg. Since Sieg is my best secondary. In fact I won't mind your using mitsu vs Sieg... even though people THINK that sieg vs mitsu is grossly in mitsu's favour. No need to have money involved. I don't give excuses for losing.
 
ShenChan said:
My 2 Cents (It doesn't matter to you all anyway)


Let's be honest:

Each of us has a basic strategy for each character we play against and most of the strategies are pretty similar with some adjustments depending on range. We don't have to change alot from it.

However against Hilde, like it or not, we can't fight the stupid old same way. We are forced to change. I can't do things which i can safely say "I CAN DO TO THE REST OF THE CAST" to Hilde. Why? Like what Belial said, "C3B template in my head". Movement gets restricted, moves get restricted, making a single move actually introduce more RISKS compared to the rest of the cast. Which other character has this? None. Sorry but i'm comparing the risk vs rewards to the rest of the cast here. Can Talim/Setsuka/NM/Mitsu/Rock/Astaroth/Raphael/Yun/Sieg/Tira/Voldo/Soph/Cass/Lizard/Amy/Kilik/XiangHua/Zas ring you out from "Infinity and beyond"? The point is: Against Hilde, you just need a lapse in concentration for like 2 seconds, and there off you go. And it not only has RO distance, the Doom combo is freaking Half Life. Against the rest, at the most you just eat a launcher that does 30%.

I don't know how far the US and French communities have progressed with Hilde, but i can say that she's still a monster without her charges. Like what Malek and Belial mention, her movement (She can step Mitsu's 33A), even her pokes. IMHO, it doesn't matter if you bind or don't bind, as a competitor, we have to take it professionally. However, a Hilde without binds will have disadvantage when breaking COMMAND throws and yes only them.

Yuan: I'm just gonna talk about her generally. Well not that it matters :)
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Yoshi can do it. Well sort of. If you can master JF4 A:A:A:A:A
Here's a vid. But 44bB tends to be easier and safer. Just my humble opinion.
 
NamuSkull said:
Yoshi can do it. Well sort of. If you can master JF4 A:A:A:A:A
Here's a vid. But 44bB tends to be easier and safer. Just my humble opinion.
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Yea, but it's still not as far as Hilde's. It's not that hard to do it either. However, Hilde's combo is much easier to do compared to Yoshi's IMO.
 
Yuan: I thought you dont main Hilde anymore? I only saw you use hilde in the first months game was out. I saw you use other characters at SG tournaments. Also since you tend to agree with me quite a lot I dont see what it is there to prove.

As for good strategy and mixup that is a common sense. Cant see how its not agreeable. Of course that doesnt always mean offencive mix up, a defencive one can work too, but usually strategy that has to be based off your opponents behaviour should not be taken as a primary strategy, since you might not get a chance to apply it.
Or if you say this kind of strats work against hilde, that is exactly b/c of what I said - b/c Hilde players are not skilled. No good player will lose to gimmicks in the long run.
 
Belial: X and Hilde are my mains and Im taking them to cannes

I played Hilde the old way and got sick with her. I picked her up again and played her in a different way. One that I even call fun. I really like the character. Honestly, I'm quite upset with how many people are playing her. But a tourney is a tourney.So anything goes. But i disagree with such play for casuals, where development and fun are the most important.

Regarding strategy and mixups.

IF the term 'mixups' you refer to mean a mind game between power lows/throws and mids, then I will disagree with you.

However, if you can broaden it and allow low damage pokes in the picture. then I'd agree with you.

What I mean to imply is that power mixups, although necessary to have in your gameplan, should not be the primary factor in determining what a good strategy is.

I feel that for a good strategy, every facet of play, such as spacing, poking and defense should be geared towards limiting the opponent's options, as per his character. At least that's how I play.

I develop a very elaborate flowchart. Then I will make my decisions based on my opponent's habits/thinking.
 
I have actully managed to beat alot of players without the doom combos. Hildes ordinary play can be really deadly and usefull.
 
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