sillycatsteven
[09] Warrior
As suggested by many in the other thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to have a separate thread dedicated to finding Jolly's strengths and how to fight in Jolly.It'll be a good place to dedicate arguments on JS without cluttering up other threads. It'll also make n00bs like me find information on Jolly easier since we are now going to spend more time in JS without the easy way out. but if the mods think this belongs else where, please move it... it would be nice if we can compile a detailed list of JS moves with strengths and weaknesses, but the main idea is to use this as a way to understand JS more and to be able to use JS more efficiently.
where is the strength in JS? what are some good strategies we can employ in JS? what are the tools and good set-ups? how can we make JS work even better?
let's use our combined intelligence to make JS seem over powered!!!
EDIT: i'd placed some of my original post in spoiler to save space and move the compiled list out of spoiler.
Compiled list:
(sorry for the copy and paste... too lazy. if anyone is unhappy I'll re-write it.
XD)
People have mentions that Tira's WR moves are very useful even outside FC situations. So learning iWR is highly recommended.
66AA
One of the best moves in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe.
It's good as a step killer, RO and whiff punish (Buffer 66AA while moving so that you're ready when opponent whiffs). It can also be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.
Good move if used wisely.
22_88A
Step killer. Limited range but safe. Good advantage on hit.
7_8_9 A
Unsafe, but has decent range and counters many options.
WR A
A horizontal with surprising range. Unfortunately you have to TC to use it. Important to remember this move after FC against opponents thinking they are out of Tira's range as this move has a huge sweep that's longer than most moves you can do out of FC. The only move with comparable range is 6B.
1B
Decent range and speed for a low, and it's safe. A good forward and sometime back dash interrupt. Or use it to take off that last bit of health. Can be side-stepped.
3B
A slightly above average launcher. Only -12 when most 3B are -13 or -14. It doesn't do lead to damaging follow-ups like the GS version though.
4B
Whiffing it is suicide. Apart from that, the jury's still out on this one. It may have some potentials but nothing is certain at this point.
Its back-step cannot compare with Mitsu or Leixia's, but it's hit frame is faster. It's hit box is also small.
One suggestion is to use it to pressure opponents not forward dashing.
Another suggestion is to stop Siegfried's stance mixups. It avoids his quick knee, while hitting him out of stance.
6B
I call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. Also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. It also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent.
Another move to remember after FC due to the range.
Main weakness, linear and easily side-stepped.
11_77B
People may expect 22B so mix things up with 11B. On hit mix lows, mids and throws. A good option on wake up.
22B, -3 on block, +9 on hit
A move many people abuse. Tool for spacing. Decent guard damage. Just be careful don't let it become too predictable because it can be easily side-stepped.
Decent range, but can still be easily out-ranged by characters like Nightmare and Ivy esp after it's blocked.
Scenarios.
1) After 22B on block X character will:
Mix up your attacks when 22B hits, otherwise create more space.
66B
Good combo starter, generally safe, with good range, decent guard damage and hits grounded. It's more difficult to use due to its slowness.
Note: at this point the opinion about 66b BE is split. one side believe that it is best to avoid 66b BE because it is more effective to save your gauge for CE and GI. the other side believe that by using the combo 66B, 66b BE for the chance to extend the combo through persona change, you can increase your instant damage output. both are valid and it really depends on your own play-style. The first view point is a more of a steady damage output. This is a more balanced approach. The second view point is a more luck-based, spike damage output.
WR BK
Different people have different uses. But the most important thing to remember is to use this wisely. It's unsafe and easily countered esp if the opponent knows Tira. Don't use this out of habit.
4K
One of the best moves Tira has. The self-damage is insignificant compared with it's strengths. It's i12 and completely safe. If you get the possible GS transition on hit, it's 75+ damage with combo follow up. If you can CH confirm, it's even better. It's +22 on CH if you get a transition. More importantly, it's enough to launch with 3B or 4BBB. It is also good in a combo. 3B, (delay or 66) 4K only works at close range. 66B, 4A, 4K deals similar damage to most combo started with 66B. 1K, 4K starts with a low and the other options deals similar damage.
Main weakness, very limited range and possible chance for headache. Don't use this if you are literately down to 1 health.
236k BE
One of the best moves Tira has (the only truly OP move pre-1.02). A fast low with amazing range and damage. The added chance to mood swing is a bonus. Don't use this move because you want to switch mood, use it because you need a fast, damaging low. Even the non-BE version is good with its long reach.
1K
A low that's faster than 1A, which can combo into 4K for chance of mood swing only at close range. At tip range, the enemy trips but don't get knock down.
6K -6 on block
This move is safe on block and has decent push back, TC and KNDs. Recommended when playing defensively.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.
44K
Even though it leaves you BT, it still has its uses.
Attacking after blocked 44K is not recommended. The disadvantage is very high and you put yourself at high risk of getting CH while BT. If your opponent wants a back grab, 2G -> (wait for whiff) -> WR B etc. will net more damage and is less risky. But if the distance is right, a following BT B+K B can have surprising result. But this is very risky, unless the opponent don't know Tira.
66K
Move is safe on block and leaves you at an advantage on hit.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.
Lack of tracking and range is this moves main weakness. Esp after the move is block, Tira will be in throw range. Option suggested after blocked 66K: A+B aGI, 4K interrupt.
22_88K
Step killer
WR K
A good poke has decent speed and has TC and TJ property. It can also W! or RO.
Main weakness, linear and short range.
6A+B
UB. Very good horizontal tracking with decent range.
4B+K B
Slightly slow. Can combo into 236b BE or 66B_BE. Like many of JS moves the second hit carries extra properties on CH.
UD is not recommended out side combos, it is really unsafe, but a few people pointed out that using something unexpected might just catch people off guard because most people are not familiar with Tira.
UDA
Can cause mood swing. The switch chance is much higher starting from 7_8_9 B+K (40%~50%) than starting from WRBK (15%~25%) [thank you Ukujiku for The List of mood change data]. Good as a follow up from WRBK, very risky from 8B+K.
UDB
The only GB in JS. Also the only safe move off UB on block.
UDK
Have combo followups.
where is the strength in JS? what are some good strategies we can employ in JS? what are the tools and good set-ups? how can we make JS work even better?
let's use our combined intelligence to make JS seem over powered!!!
EDIT: i'd placed some of my original post in spoiler to save space and move the compiled list out of spoiler.
i'll try to kick start with my n00bly ideas.
1) 22B:
i think most people know this. but 22B is a move that can give you space. i know that i tend to forget this move except to tag it after 1K (which is escapable by teching to the side, but most opponents don't know this). am i wrong? are there any other uses for this move? what can you do after you have your space?
2) 6B:
i call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. it also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent. am i using this move wrong? are there better ways of using it?
3) 66AA:
one of the best move in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe. are there other uses for this move except as side step killer? it can be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.
4) 4B:
do people actually use this move? i find this move quite interesting. it's like an altered version of Leixia's 44B and other similar moves (mitsu has one too). there has to some good (and different) way to take advantage of the fact that back step and hit frame occurs almost at the same time, instead of back step then jump forward to attack. i have tried to incorporate this move but i don't fight a lot of offline battles, and it doesn't really work on CPU or online....
5) WR BK:
firstly it's a type of opponent match up knowledge litmus test. if they fail, Tira can get away with a lot of other stuff.
secondly, make people fear the K in WR BK. i find that even if the B was blocked, the K can still interrupt many moves. mix it up with moves like WR K or just not use the K. furthermore, make they fear whiffed WR B. for most moves that require moving closer to hit after a whiffed WR B, the following K would hit first.
is this a good way to use WR BK? are there any potential pitfalls when using it this way? are there better ways to use it?
6) WR A:
a horizontal with surprising range. unfortunately you have to TC to use it. i often wondered if there are better ways to use this move. anyone with any suggestions??
7) not about move. i want to ask about fighting style:
what is a good style to fight as JS? Idlemind suggested a"sharp defense" (see spoiler)
1) 22B:
i think most people know this. but 22B is a move that can give you space. i know that i tend to forget this move except to tag it after 1K (which is escapable by teching to the side, but most opponents don't know this). am i wrong? are there any other uses for this move? what can you do after you have your space?
2) 6B:
i call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. it also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent. am i using this move wrong? are there better ways of using it?
3) 66AA:
one of the best move in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe. are there other uses for this move except as side step killer? it can be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.
4) 4B:
do people actually use this move? i find this move quite interesting. it's like an altered version of Leixia's 44B and other similar moves (mitsu has one too). there has to some good (and different) way to take advantage of the fact that back step and hit frame occurs almost at the same time, instead of back step then jump forward to attack. i have tried to incorporate this move but i don't fight a lot of offline battles, and it doesn't really work on CPU or online....
5) WR BK:
firstly it's a type of opponent match up knowledge litmus test. if they fail, Tira can get away with a lot of other stuff.
secondly, make people fear the K in WR BK. i find that even if the B was blocked, the K can still interrupt many moves. mix it up with moves like WR K or just not use the K. furthermore, make they fear whiffed WR B. for most moves that require moving closer to hit after a whiffed WR B, the following K would hit first.
is this a good way to use WR BK? are there any potential pitfalls when using it this way? are there better ways to use it?
6) WR A:
a horizontal with surprising range. unfortunately you have to TC to use it. i often wondered if there are better ways to use this move. anyone with any suggestions??
7) not about move. i want to ask about fighting style:
what is a good style to fight as JS? Idlemind suggested a"sharp defense" (see spoiler)
- what are some good meter gain moves and strategy?
- i have to disagree with the "cutting the combos short" idea. it maybe a good idea right at the very beginning because you have room for failed attempts. but after 20sec or so, once people start wearing Tira's health or guard gauge down, Tira has little room for errors. also the idea is to maximize JS, this type of thinking would just lead to "get to GS asap" and we think that's not consistent with Tira's character design intention. also, i think we need to ditch the "get to GS" mentality, at least until we become more proficient at JS. this is because this type of mentality can lead to us making the wrong decision to gamble mood swing when there are other better options that will give us more consistent results. furthermore, if you want to gamble change, it's probably best to avoid JS 66b BE at all cost. the damage to cost ratio is very poor.
- lastly, how do we minimize the the impact of an attack-oriented-game-design has on a character that relies on defense?
Compiled list:
(sorry for the copy and paste... too lazy. if anyone is unhappy I'll re-write it.
XD)
People have mentions that Tira's WR moves are very useful even outside FC situations. So learning iWR is highly recommended.
66AA
One of the best moves in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe.
It's good as a step killer, RO and whiff punish (Buffer 66AA while moving so that you're ready when opponent whiffs). It can also be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.
Good move if used wisely.
22_88A
Step killer. Limited range but safe. Good advantage on hit.
7_8_9 A
Unsafe, but has decent range and counters many options.
WR A
A horizontal with surprising range. Unfortunately you have to TC to use it. Important to remember this move after FC against opponents thinking they are out of Tira's range as this move has a huge sweep that's longer than most moves you can do out of FC. The only move with comparable range is 6B.
1B
Decent range and speed for a low, and it's safe. A good forward and sometime back dash interrupt. Or use it to take off that last bit of health. Can be side-stepped.
3B
A slightly above average launcher. Only -12 when most 3B are -13 or -14. It doesn't do lead to damaging follow-ups like the GS version though.
4B
Whiffing it is suicide. Apart from that, the jury's still out on this one. It may have some potentials but nothing is certain at this point.
Its back-step cannot compare with Mitsu or Leixia's, but it's hit frame is faster. It's hit box is also small.
One suggestion is to use it to pressure opponents not forward dashing.
Another suggestion is to stop Siegfried's stance mixups. It avoids his quick knee, while hitting him out of stance.
6B
I call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. Also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. It also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent.
Another move to remember after FC due to the range.
Main weakness, linear and easily side-stepped.
11_77B
People may expect 22B so mix things up with 11B. On hit mix lows, mids and throws. A good option on wake up.
22B, -3 on block, +9 on hit
A move many people abuse. Tool for spacing. Decent guard damage. Just be careful don't let it become too predictable because it can be easily side-stepped.
Decent range, but can still be easily out-ranged by characters like Nightmare and Ivy esp after it's blocked.
Scenarios.
1) After 22B on block X character will:
Step:
- 66A, 6A
Any attack:
- JS CE
Fast verticals (BB, 3B):
- QS
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
- JG
Low kick:
- 3K
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
Fast/High horizontals (AA, 6A):
- 6K
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
- JG
Block:
- Throw
- Low attack (236k BE is a very good option)
Mix up your attacks when 22B hits, otherwise create more space.
66B
Good combo starter, generally safe, with good range, decent guard damage and hits grounded. It's more difficult to use due to its slowness.
Note: at this point the opinion about 66b BE is split. one side believe that it is best to avoid 66b BE because it is more effective to save your gauge for CE and GI. the other side believe that by using the combo 66B, 66b BE for the chance to extend the combo through persona change, you can increase your instant damage output. both are valid and it really depends on your own play-style. The first view point is a more of a steady damage output. This is a more balanced approach. The second view point is a more luck-based, spike damage output.
WR BK
Different people have different uses. But the most important thing to remember is to use this wisely. It's unsafe and easily countered esp if the opponent knows Tira. Don't use this out of habit.
4K
One of the best moves Tira has. The self-damage is insignificant compared with it's strengths. It's i12 and completely safe. If you get the possible GS transition on hit, it's 75+ damage with combo follow up. If you can CH confirm, it's even better. It's +22 on CH if you get a transition. More importantly, it's enough to launch with 3B or 4BBB. It is also good in a combo. 3B, (delay or 66) 4K only works at close range. 66B, 4A, 4K deals similar damage to most combo started with 66B. 1K, 4K starts with a low and the other options deals similar damage.
Main weakness, very limited range and possible chance for headache. Don't use this if you are literately down to 1 health.
236k BE
One of the best moves Tira has (the only truly OP move pre-1.02). A fast low with amazing range and damage. The added chance to mood swing is a bonus. Don't use this move because you want to switch mood, use it because you need a fast, damaging low. Even the non-BE version is good with its long reach.
1K
A low that's faster than 1A, which can combo into 4K for chance of mood swing only at close range. At tip range, the enemy trips but don't get knock down.
6K -6 on block
This move is safe on block and has decent push back, TC and KNDs. Recommended when playing defensively.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.
44K
Even though it leaves you BT, it still has its uses.
Attacking after blocked 44K is not recommended. The disadvantage is very high and you put yourself at high risk of getting CH while BT. If your opponent wants a back grab, 2G -> (wait for whiff) -> WR B etc. will net more damage and is less risky. But if the distance is right, a following BT B+K B can have surprising result. But this is very risky, unless the opponent don't know Tira.
66K
Move is safe on block and leaves you at an advantage on hit.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.
Lack of tracking and range is this moves main weakness. Esp after the move is block, Tira will be in throw range. Option suggested after blocked 66K: A+B aGI, 4K interrupt.
22_88K
Step killer
WR K
A good poke has decent speed and has TC and TJ property. It can also W! or RO.
Main weakness, linear and short range.
6A+B
UB. Very good horizontal tracking with decent range.
4B+K B
Slightly slow. Can combo into 236b BE or 66B_BE. Like many of JS moves the second hit carries extra properties on CH.
UD is not recommended out side combos, it is really unsafe, but a few people pointed out that using something unexpected might just catch people off guard because most people are not familiar with Tira.
UDA
Can cause mood swing. The switch chance is much higher starting from 7_8_9 B+K (40%~50%) than starting from WRBK (15%~25%) [thank you Ukujiku for The List of mood change data]. Good as a follow up from WRBK, very risky from 8B+K.
UDB
The only GB in JS. Also the only safe move off UB on block.
UDK
Have combo followups.
