Ivy BD Changes

Haha, a few =P sad but true. Thanks Crossfire503. Well, the only things missing is the framedata and soul damage data. Here is the data for Sword state (incomplete, and the rest is in progress)

Buffs:

- A is +3 on CH (-1 in SC4)
- AA is +5 on NH/CH (+4 in SC4)
- WS A is +3 on NH/CH (+2 in SC4)
- 1B is -13 on block (-14 in SC4)
- 2B is +2 on NH/CH (0 in SC4)
- BB is +4 on NH/CH (+1~2 in SC4)
- FC B is +2 on NH/CH (0 in SC4)
- 6B9K/8B+K,K is -13 on block (-14 in SC4)

Nerfs:

- 1A is +14 on CH (+16 in SC4)
- 6A is +3 on NH/CH (+5~6 in SC4)
- 6B9K/8B+K,K is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4)
- 1KBK is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4)
- 1K is i15 (i13 in SC4)
- 33_66_99A is 0 on NH/CH (+1 in SC4)
- 33_66_99K is +2 on NH/CH (+3 in SC4)

The nerfs (except for 6B9K/8B+K,K and 1K) are very slight.

New combo:

CH CL 6A,A+K, WP 3B - 72 (character and range dependent) WP 3B works also after CH WP 6AA.
 
Ring said:
Haha, a few =P sad but true. Thanks Crossfire503. Well, the only things missing is the framedata and soul damage data. Here is the data for Sword state (incomplete, and the rest is in progress)

Buffs:

- A is +3 on CH (-1 in SC4)
- AA is +5 on NH/CH (+4 in SC4)
- WS A is +3 on NH/CH (+2 in SC4)
- 1B is -13 on block (-14 in SC4)
- 2B is +2 on NH/CH (0 in SC4)
- BB is +4 on NH/CH (+1~2 in SC4)
- FC B is +2 on NH/CH (0 in SC4)
- 6B9K/8B+K,K is -13 on block (-14 in SC4)

Nerfs:

- 1A is +14 on CH (+16 in SC4)
- 6A is +3 on NH/CH (+5~6 in SC4)
- 6B9K/8B+K,K is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4)
- 1KBK is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4)
- 1K is i15 (i13 in SC4)
- 33_66_99A is 0 on NH/CH (+1 in SC4)
- 33_66_99K is +2 on NH/CH (+3 in SC4)

The nerfs (except for 6B9K/8B+K,K and 1K) are very slight.

New combo:

CH CL 6A,A+K, WP 3B - 72 (character and range dependent) WP 3B works also after CH WP 6AA.
Click to expand...
Thanks Ring ^^

SW FC B is good news, I would rather have +2 than 0, and it's very nice that BB is +4 now, is this with all stances or just with sword? I'm guessing that it isn't as the animation is different with CL and WP. I'm still alittle saddened about 1K, 1KBK/8B+KK/6B9K though.
 
Yep, that was the data for Sword only. I finished CL today. The changes:

Buffs:

- AA is i13 and +6 on NH/CH (i14 in SC4 and 0 on NH/CH) extreme buff
- 2A is i14 (i15 in SC4)
- B is +1 on NH and +3 on CH (-1 on NH, and +1 on CH in SC4)
- BB is NC and +6 on NH/CH (NCC and -4 on hit in SC4)
- FC B is +2 on NH/CH (+1 in SC4)
- 2B is +2 on NH/CH (+1 in SC4)
- 6A is -1 on CH (-10 in SC4)
- 66B+K (new version of CL 66B) is +4 on NH/CH
- 66B,A+K (new version of CL 66BA) is +5 on NH/CH
- CL 22_88B is -1 on block at close range (-2 in SC4)

Nerfs:

- A+B is ~-10 on NH and CH, and -17 on block (I had some problems with hit data for this one) (-5 on NH/CH and -13 on block in SC4)
- 66B,A is -5 on NH/CH (+3 in SC4)

Coil got buffed nicely. BB is great. Now CL BB > CL 1B,B+K. Too bad CL214B_ still have horrible frames on block (-21 and -28) Now combined witht he fact that it doesn't force crouch on block and has no pushback, it's extremely risky.
 
Gaining advantage in most of her pokes/moves on NH or CH in BD is really nice.
Although, from what I can see in other characters' SAs, it seems that most characters have received that kind of improvement (Gaining advantage on NH or CH). It's not that they decided to just benefit Ivy in this department, but most likely they wanted to change the way battle flows overall (Perhaps bringing it a bit closer to SC3 frames? Or not? Haven't played BD enough).

On the other hand, some of her very useful tools (If not all), have been nerfed:
- SW 6B9K/8B+K,K is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4): No advantage in her punishing tool
- SW 1KBK is -2 on NH/CH (+2~3 in SC4): No advantage here either. Someone also mentioned that this returned to the SC3 version where If you inputed the whole command you cannot end in 1KB in CH. Is this true? And what is the advantage/disadvantage of 1KB on NH/CH?
- SW 1K is i15 (i13 in SC4): Very very sad about this one. Is it true that its reach is shorter now?
- SW A+B/[A+B]: Ok, this one was gimmicky and not that useful in high level gameplay, but still a decent trumpcard of hers. It has received a major damage nerf If I remember correctly.
- CL A+B is ~-10 on NH and CH, and -17 on block (-5 on NH/CH and -13 on block in SC4): Perhaps one of her greater mixup tools also nerfed.
- CL 1BB+K: No pushback
- CL 214B/: Doesn't force crouch (doesn't catch step also?). Same disadvantage...
(I'm waiting your info on WP, however, one thing I know for sure is that WP 3A has been also nerfed and no 6B+K spam...)

I can't be sure since I haven't played this game much, but, from all these changes I believe they tried to make Ivy less "gimmicky" (relying mostly or abusing certain/better moves), but they made room for a better command throw game with all these frame buffs (which is actually better for my tastes now that I think about it). Have you checked If there are any changes in the buffer lock during her moves while inputing SS or CS?
 
Yes, you're right. The first thing that I noticed after playing the game for about an hour is that they nerfed her best SC4 tools. But buffed other stuff as well. I will do WP next. To answer your questions:

About CS/SS: I still have problems with doing those command throws on the psp analog. I can do CS/SS fine, but rarely get iCS, it feels like impossible =( The thing I'm sure of, is that the buffer window is very big, like in SC3, so you can start buffering CS/SS at the beginning of the move animation. Also, just like in SC3, her command throws are unbreakable from the back and do more damage: iCS does 109 dmg, and normal CS/SS 90dmg.

-SW 6B9K/8B+K,K is indeed negative, I'm very sad about it. But it still does it job as a punishing tool (i13, 35dmg)
-SW 1KBK is negative when the kick hits. SW 1KB is -29+ on block (the "B" part whiffs like in SC4), SW 1K is still +2. And yes, if you press 1KBK she won't end CH 1KB like in SC4. I don't really see a big nerf here, but then again, I have never used 1KBK because it's very risky (one backstep and Ivy is dead, or just jump the low kick)
- 1K is i15 and have shorter reach. 3K has more reach than 1K now and it's the same speed.
- SW A+B_[A+B] changes: A+B - 32 (-25), [A+B] - 58 (-20)
- CL 1B,B+K is now more usable in wall combos, because it gives a wallsplat allowing some moves to do more than 100dmg (like WP 66B). Now CL BB is better, because of the advantage. The speed is the same, i17.
- CL 214B is crap. It's worse in every aspect: lost the tracking (so doesn't catch step), has worse side step properties, doesn't force crouch and has no pushback.

So far WP seems better. They nerfed 3A (it doesnt combo at close range and it's i18) but buffed 4A, which knocks down on CH now and CL 236BB is guaranteed. Most importantly, the frames are better. I'm a little sad about WP BB, I was expecting it to be +5 or +6 like CL BB, but it's only +1 on hit. It has more range than CL BB though. Plus, both moves still have tracking properties of the second hit.
 
About CS/SS: I still have problems with doing those command throws on the psp analog. I can do CS/SS fine, but rarely get iCS, it feels like impossible =(
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Don't know If it was a lucky moment or not, but buffering iCS on the psp several times, seemed to me way easier than the ps3 pad. However I didn't use the analog. I just used psp's directional pad and did the CS motion much slower than i do it on the ps3 pad. I also had mapped A+G on the left shoulder button, so that timing it with "1" would be easier. The only thing that I had forgotten to check is this:
The thing I'm sure of, is that the buffer window is very big, like in SC3, so you can start buffering CS/SS at the beginning of the move animation.
Click to expand...
And now that you confirmed it...I really can't wait for this patch to come to the ps3 version (although I doubt it :p).
It's not that inputing ss or cs on the ps3 was that difficult, however, because of the speed and small buffer window, i sometimes made a very distinctive noise while buffering (even if it was a slight noise), and i was becoming predictable. Having bigger window and slower possible execution in BD, seems to me that her command throws will be much more applicable than before (not to mention the multiple advantages she now has on most pokes).
Can you also see any improvement in her command throw game Ring? Or is it just me?

anyway, great work so far for SW and CL! i'm waiting for WP ;)
 
I can't really say DittO =P I've gotten myself away from using CS/SS in BD.

Here is the spreadsheet: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tx4WL-BwFQFA2ajcui5u2Wg&single=true&gid=0&output=html (it's not complete though. It contains the most important info. Haven't done the BT frames)

Now about WP frames, I'm sure many people wonder about 3A. It has very interesting frame properties! It's a mixture of SC4 1.02 WP 3A and SC3 AE WP 3A:

Block: -16 at close range, -12 at tip range (it's safe)
NH: -3 at close range, 0 at tip range
CH: +12 at close range, +14 at tip/far range

As always, this move shines at tip range. Now it has SC4 1.02 properties of block and NH at tip range. I'm not sure if should I consider this a buff, though.

Anyway, WP Buffs (a very few unfortunately)

- 5A is 0 on CH (-1~2 in SC4)
- 5AA is +2~3 on NH/CH (-6 in SC4)
- 2B is +2 on NH/CH (0 in SC4)
- 5B is -2 on NH, 0 on CH (-5/-3 in SC4)
- 5BB is 0~1 on NH/CH (-3/-3 in SC4)
- FC B is +2 on NH/CH (+1 in SC4)
- 6B+K is -13 on block (-15 in SC4)
- 3A is -12 at tip range and 0 on hit at tip range (-6 in SC4)

Nerfs:

- 66B is now -15 on block (-13 in SC4)
- 6A is like -8 on CH (+3 in SC4)


SE: After more than one year of us crying on the forums about 5hit JF being unsafe, they finally decided to change the frames of this move. It's now "only" -17-19 (from -15~16 in SC4) lol. Sophitia always gets 2xTAS B after blocking B:6B:4B:6B:4B. Thanks Namco! The only frame buff in SE is that SE 66K gives +15 on CH now, instead of +14, but it's a useless buff.
 
se: After more than one year of us crying on the forums about 5hit jf being unsafe, they finally decided to change the frames of this move. It's now "only" -17-19 (from -15~16 in sc4) lol. Sophitia always gets 2xtas b after blocking b:6b:4b:6b:4b. Thanks namco! The only frame buff in se is that se 66k gives +15 on ch now, instead of +14, but it's a useless buff.
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Fail
 
se: After more than one year of us crying on the forums about 5hit jf being unsafe, they finally decided to change the frames of this move. It's now "only" -17-19 (from -15~16 in sc4) lol. Sophitia always gets 2xtas b after blocking b:6b:4b:6b:4b. Thanks namco! The only frame buff in se is that se 66k gives +15 on ch now, instead of +14, but it's a useless buff.
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-_-

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-_-
 
I got a question would SC4 Ivy be broken if she got most of the good buffs from BD?
By good buffs i mean the plus frames as most of the damage buffs where small and unessicary.
 
Her damage hasn't changed much in BD. I think she would only need in SC4 5hit JF damage, and CL/WP BB and AA being NC + frames on hit to be much better.

After playing some more BD, I'm pretty sure she isn't upper-mid anymore. There's a huge gap between Ivy and characters like Hilde, Mitsu, Setsuka, Kilik, Yoshimitsu or Amy. It's not that she got nerfed so badly, but it's about the other characters and their imbalanced buffs. We are back to SC3 again.
 
I agree with you there Ring.

But with her overall design, she won't go lower than mid tier and that's how she definitely looks ATM until something amazing surfaces. CS/SS and her overall versatility won't let her go down further than mid.

But yeah, Ivy isn't top like in 1.01 or upper mid like in 1.03.
 
Back on the ship with Ivy in BD, as Zasalamel even if beefed up properly and much better, I find him boring for some reason.

Rock will always be my fun character (in SC4 at least) and I always have a soft spot for Mina and Yoshimitsu from long years of playing them competitively and I'm glad that Mina is very competitive again and Yoshi is back to being as good and fun as he was in 1.01.

Ivy has a different flow in BD but I'm getting the hang of it again and she still has some CF prowess in this game among all her changes except for A+B+K which is just bad, LOL!
 
Thought I would mention some new findings:

It's still possible to switch stances with A~G~A+K for example. Thanks to this it's still possible to spam WP 6B+K2_8 infinitely, you just have to change the stance quickly.

CL 1B,B+K gives a new type of combo after moves that launch very high (WP 44B,B+K for example), it slams them to the ground and 214K is guaranteed (it can be escaped with JU though), but it does less damage than other combos (with CL 236BB) so I don't get why would anyone use this. Namco put this new property to CL1B,B+K where the move is no longer AC-able and always slams them to the ground, like Amy's 236KK. It would be awesome if Ivy had a quick low that hits grounded/wakeup for good damage (like Amy's 2B+K), then this new CL 1B,B+K setup would be amazing because it can be used after many moves (basically every launcher, includuing WP WS BB) but it seems kinda useless... for example, WP 44B,B+K, CL 1B,B+K, SW 214K is like 60dmg whereas WP 44B,B+K, CL 4B, CL 236BB is 70.
 
Interesting find Ring. I am starting to think BD Ivy wont be so bad. As you can still do CS/SS from coil.
I remember saying you can use the cancels to change the stance, so CS/SS would still be possible to do in CL as well as other moves.

Eli123s said:
I just played BD. Ivy… :(

Ivy is not very flexible since she can’t change stance during block. But I have a solution (this can be done in SC4). If you wan to change stances without going into the “stance change animation”, use cancel moves and change stances. Easiest and most effective (imo) are,

1) SW-->CL-->WP: ag ak

2) WP--> CL-->SW: kg bk

It’s almost bypassing the system, because Ivy can change stance in-between moves, so a cancel is a move, so input the change there. Just make sure you do it quick and you can kinda mash the inputs.
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I am starting to wonder if developer really intended for CS/SS to be a mixup. If you look at the past incarnation SC2 she could do flaming CS/SS. SC3 CS/SS from SE. SC4 CS/SS from CL. The same for BD Ivy. Hopefully this trend continues.
 
Well, I think it was only a true mixup in SC2, even though flaming CS was a glitch. In SC3, yea you could do CS/SS from SE but because of retreat guard they could always avoid the SS.

I'm playing a little more BD now. I still don't like the changes but the new frames are fun. +6 after CL BB and CL AA gives a lot of mixups and frametraps. WP 4A is kinda broken now. Because of the improved step, you can step many moves like in SC2, but some of them are still unstepable, and WP 4A is one of them. It has sick range, knocks down on CH with guaranteed followup and it's safe on block. I'm having problem adapting to new WP 3A combo, thus I don't use this move much now, also it can be stepped at close range to one side.

Also found new combo, the most damaging one I guess:

CH SW 44A, CL 4B, WP 1B+K, CL 4B, CL 236BB - it does 113 dmg (i wonder if this works in SC4 too? It would do much less damage though because SC4 damage scaling is much bigger)

CH SW 44A, CL 4B, SE B:6B:4B:6B:4B still works, it does 98 dmg and more than 120 with tech.
 
I don't know BD, but if those moves are the same as SC4, isn't:

SW 44A, CL 4B, WP 66A+B the best damage?
 
SW CH 44A, CL 4B, WP 66A+B is 108 dmg. WP 66A+B's damage was reduced in BD from 59 to 43. But because of the new damage scaling, it does more or less the same dmg in combos as in SC4.

CH SW 44A also leads to her most damaging wall combo (I think)

CH 44A, 66B, CL 1B,B+K, A+B,A+K, WP 1B+K, CL 4B, 236BB. It does 152 dmg.
 
I know most people don't care about BD but when I was living at my grandmother's house I found a new combo:

CH WP 4B+K, CL WS AA (60 DMG) - WS AA must be delayed until the spin stun is almost over.

Also, SW 3B/33B has worse frames. Seems to be only +4 on hit and -6~7 on guard. Combined with less damage on CH and SG damage, this move is much worse than before.
 
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