Ivy Match-ups and Anti-Character strategies

5:5. Might be ignorant here since it's been a long time since I last fought Hates but when I did, it didn't seem like there was anything Cervy had that gave him a -far- distinct advantage over Ivy.

Cervy's BT game is good, but nowhere near as annoying as Voldo's for example. His set-ups are strong but slow (similar to Ivy in fact) and iGDR is too risky to make a difference against a player who can defend well; certainly not something Ivy (the character itself) can't defend against. iTP setups can be countered with Ivy's spacing game as well.

If I'm missing anything glaring, let me know.
 
i guess it sounds about right there's more info on the cervy thread but you did leave out that cervy has far better risk reward and can hurt her pretty bad if she does something wrong.
 
babalook said:
i guess it sounds about right there's more info on the cervy thread but you did leave out that cervy has far better risk reward and can hurt her pretty bad if she does something wrong.
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This can be said about almost any character aside from Sophie/Astaroth/Hilde. (near 100 damage on a single mistake anyone?) The question then is for Ivy to do damage or SG damage, does she have to put herself on a lot of risk considering Cervy's frames?

I don't think so.

Let's put it this way, I'd agree with putting Ivy vs Cervy as 4:6 if that same person would say Ivy vs Sophie is 3:7.
 
teflon2105 said:
I was typing too fast my mistake ivy has the tools too punish algol very well.
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Be specific; what tools in particular does Ivy have that fair against Algol's certain tools?

teflon2105 said:
Fellow Peers know her step isn't too good.
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These types of fellow peers who claim that Amy's step isn't good are those who hardly/never experience high-level play against Amy and/or as Thugish points out, didn't do their research.
 
Sora said:
This can be said about almost any character aside from Sophie/Astaroth/Hilde. (near 100 damage on a single mistake anyone?) The question then is for Ivy to do damage or SG damage, does she have to put herself on a lot of risk considering Cervy's frames?

I don't think so.

Let's put it this way, I'd agree with putting Ivy vs Cervy as 4:6 if that same person would say Ivy vs Sophie is 3:7.
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if you read the stuff from the cervy matchup thread it explains how her SG doesnt really work.
 
well I'm sure nobody cares about my opinion but here it is anyway. not too much different from the chart on page 1, but a few changes:

- Algol: 5:5
- Amy: 4:6
- Astaroth: 5:5
- Cassandra: 6:4
- Cervantes: 4:6
- Darth Vader: 5:5
- Hilde: 3:7
- Kilik: 5:5
- Lizardman: 5:5
- Maxi: 7:3
- Mitsurugi: 5:5
- Nightmare: 6:4
- Raphael: 6:4
- Rock: 6:4
- Seong Mina: 7:3
- Setsuka: 4:6
- Siegfried: 5:5
- Sophitia: 4:6
- Taki: 6:4
- Talim: 7:3
- The Apprentice: 6:4
- Tira: 6:4
- Voldo: 4:6
- Xianghua: 5:5
- Yoda: 8:2
- Yoshimitsu: 5:5
- Yun Seong: 6:4
- Zasalamel: 6:4
 
@babalook: I respectfully disagree with the opinions said. Although tbh, I can't really prove it unless I fight a fresh Cervy in Devastation should I decide to go.

Nofacekill3r said:
well I'm sure nobody cares about my opinion but here it is anyway. not too much different from the chart on page 1, but a few changes:

- Algol: 5:5
- Amy: 4:6
- Astaroth: 5:5
- Cassandra: 6:4
- Cervantes: 4:6
- Darth Vader: 5:5
- Hilde: 3:7
- Kilik: 5:5
- Lizardman: 5:5
- Maxi: 7:3
- Mitsurugi: 5:5
- Nightmare: 6:4
- Raphael: 6:4
- Rock: 6:4
- Seong Mina: 7:3
- Setsuka: 4:6
- Siegfried: 5:5
- Sophitia: 4:6
- Taki: 6:4
- Talim: 7:3
- The Apprentice: 6:4
- Tira: 6:4
- Voldo: 4:6
- Xianghua: 5:5
- Yoda: 8:2
- Yoshimitsu: 5:5
- Yun Seong: 6:4
- Zasalamel: 6:4
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Aww. There there. Haha. XD We all love you noface.

Algol at 5:5? What tools does Algol have to avoid being CF'ed into oblivion? o.O

And I personally think Apprentice is at 5:5 just because he can jump in and out of SW range so easily that it's not even funny. Lol. :p
 
Sora said:
@babalook: I respectfully disagree with the opinions said. Although tbh, I can't really prove it unless I fight a fresh Cervy in Devastation should I decide to go.



Aww. There there. Haha. XD We all love you noface.

Algol at 5:5? What tools does Algol have to avoid being CF'ed into oblivion? o.O

And I personally think Apprentice is at 5:5 just because he can jump in and out of SW range so easily that it's not even funny. Lol. :p
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Well I don't think Ivy will win simply with SG pressure against a smart Algol player, especially given his ability to backdash almost everything from SW/CL and respond with painful whiff punishes. In addition, he does have the ability to close in distance on CL/WP with his 41236, A+K (used sparingly and only against WP 6B+K spam), and he has the ability to compete fairly well with CL pokes. The real problem is that we just don't have any serious Algol players, and the ban certainly did not help.
 
The way to beat Ivy's CF game is with stepping not back dashing and really the last thing Algol want to do is play a spacing game with Ivy which is what gives her advantage. Ivy can do a lot to out space Algol and safely keep pressure on him. You gotta watch the A+K and 63214 on occasion though. The biggest advantage is Algol can't bubble spam Ivy and that takes away a huge part of his game plan. Algol is forced to get in SW/CL range.

As for long range pokes I often include 6B and 6ba+b as well. This can keep a lot of over head shenanigans in check if you have the right angle and makes Algol hesitant to try anything to risky or drop a bubble.
 
Updated the list. It takes a lot of time to edit that post, so I only edited the scores of players who already posted them. The list is pretty much full and adding more people will make it look like a mess (of course their opinions were taken into consideration) Not much changed though:

Apprentice: 7:3 to 6:4
Setsuka: 5:5 to 4:6
Mitsurugi: 5:5 to 6:4

There's still a tie in Mitsurugi match-up, but since the Mitsu SA has it listed as 6:4 in Ivy's favor, I'm changing it to 6:4.
 
franman said:
Be specific; what tools in particular does Ivy have that fair against Algol's certain tools?

These types of fellow peers who claim that Amy's step isn't good are those who hardly/never experience high-level play against Amy and/or as Thugish points out, didn't do their research.
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Doesn't matter Ivy can pretty much make algol bubble shield useless. And wit her unblockables he got too think twice bout his teleport ( WP UB ) Yeah his BB is godly gets cancels quick in WP tip range.

Amy is one of my characters her step is nothing too brag about.
 
Ivy-Astaroth
6-4

Astaroth strength are his throws. So the best to do is to avoid them.
How to ? With range, and good use of push back moves.

Wp/Cl are the main stance to use against Astaroth.
Astaroth can only Gi Wp 6B+K2_8 in order to move forward. So mix Wp 44A+B with Wp 6B+K2_8 give some good results.
This two moves also have a great push back on block + they are very strong to CF.
Alone, they forced Astaroth to try to Gi, or to move forward and block in order to be able to come at mid range.
In case Astaroth decide to 8wr, Wp 3A Cl 236[4]BB will punish him and give range to Ivy.

At mid range, Astaroth can attack with 66K if he blocks Wp 6B+K2_8.
So, at mid range Ivy should use Wp 6B+K2_8[A+K] in order to switch to Cl.

At mid range, Cl 1B B+K followed by another 1B B+K is golden.
Astaroth cannot attack or step after the first move, all he can do is Gi or 8wr.
Cl 3A, SW 214K is the answer to 8wr. Delayed 1B B+K is the answer to Gi.
Between close range and mid range, Astaroth 66K can hit Ivy between two 1B B+K (if the first one is blocked).
Here, Ivy will have to Gi or step.

Ivy main objective in Cl will not to stop Astaroth 66K, nor to guess if he will step or not.
The main objective will be to push him back in order to be able to switch again to Wp to Cf him.
After some CL 1B B+K, Astaroth wil try to block the first one, then dash G or 8wr.
Cl 3A SW 214K deals with 8wr. Followed by Sw 3B, [B+K] Ivy will be able to gain one more time range.
CL 1B B+K [A+K], WP 44A+B A+B deals with step G.
A throw also give some range to Ivy. Same for Cl A+B A+K, Wp 66A+B in case Ivy step a 66K.


Now, the problems.

In case Astaroth guess well and 8wr an Ivy's move, he will 22B[4] for lots of damage,
but most important he will be able to pressure Ivy then.

To escape close range, several option:
9gB Cl 236[4]BB when at disadvantage or on wake up. This will beat B throws, and hit slow moves.
Cl 214B when at disadvantage or on wake up. This will beat most of Astaroth moves, but loose against throws.
4K anytime. Gives range on counter hit, avoid throws, quite fast.
9K, same as 9gB but safe.
A+G throw who give some good range.
Any moves with push back when at advantage: Wp 66A+B, Wp 6B+K2_8, Wp 44A+B A+B, Cl 1B B+K, and even 236[4]BB can be tried.

At far range, Astaroth also has two dangerous options to come close:
9B+K and 66[K].
In those situation, Ivy will be in Wp.
9B+K is easy to see, and to react with Wp 9B+K, or any high move with lot's of range.
66[K] is a little harder to react. Ivy can try to 9gB Astaroth during his rush, or Gi him.
To be able to react to those Astaroth trap, Wp 6B+K2_8 should not be used randomly.
Be sure to hit with 6B+K before to enter 2_8, or else it is possible for the 2nd move to whiff and to Astaroth to attack with both 9B+K and 66[K].

So this match up can be resume this way:
Wp / Cl will give many many trouble to Astaroth to move forward.
He will be forced to Gi from time to time in order to avoid CF and to move forward.
Once at mid range, it's still hard cause he has to guess right between step or Gi.
During theese step, Astaroth will loose lots of life and lots of CF damage. This can be enough to kill him.
How ever, once Astaroth guess right, he will be reward with many many damage + a range where he can pressure Ivy.
But Ivy still has some tool to return to the previous statement and put him again in trouble.


One more thing, this is just my opinion. Saitoh agree with it.
But Scud for example, disagree because Astaroth damage are really insane
+ his RO game forced Ivy to play from time to time mid range rather than far range, cause she don't want to be back to RO.
(But I think the fact both Saitoh and JTG beats him can also be an answer ah ah ah)
Hope, it'll help.
 
Excellent advices! Thanks.

My approach is pretty similar, however, I'm beginning to think it might actually be 5:5. I don't like this matchup. Astaroth deals enormous damage thus he only needs to guess right 2 or 3 times to win a round. Ivy has to hit him at least 5 times more to KO him. I feel that you need to put a lot more effort to win here than Asta player. And what's worse, you need to guess right more times than he does.

Pushback moves are indeed golden in this matchup but.. none of them will secure you from his 22B4. All of her great pushback moves like WP 6B+K2_8, CL 1B,B+K, SW 3B, CL 6B etc have weaknesses, they are all vulnerable to step. So in the end, it's still a guessing game but he gets a better reward =/

What about when he finally gets close? Do you thinkt that SW is out of the question in this matchup? And do you think it's worth to duck from time to time or just be aware of his B throw? His JF A command throw is also very dangerous, about 70dmg and gives him another great wakeup when you can easily lose 2/3 of your life if you guess wrong.

I find a lot of his "wakeup mixups" annoying. Not only after throws but for example, when you get hit with 22B, you can lose a lot of your life if you either stay OTG or get up. So many mindgames.

At the moment, my feeling is that it's a pretty even matchup. I don't know if CF is going to stop every Asta player:P
 
Ok.
The point is Astaroth is forced to 8wr and then 22B[4] without confirm that he actually step something, cause if he take the time to confirm he'll loose some frame and you'll be able to block. And 224 isn't safe. This means, he'll used 224 has a Gi without to be sure that it's gonna work.
If you guess Astaroth will 8wr you can use Cl 3A, but you can also just use 1B B+K then wait before to use another. If Astaroth 8wr and 224, so punish it and use again 1B B+K. He only need to guess 2/3 time yes, but it's more difficult cause he's forced to make some choice without any visual confirm, wheraes Ivy can wait, delay her move in order to see what's Astaroth doing.
At far range (Wp 6B+K range) 22B[4] will not catch you. A+B is Astaroth only move who can catch you with 9B+K and 66[K].
But you just have to move back ward from time to time to avoid easily all of them, and punish with Wp 22B, Wp 6B or Cl 6A+B (but you don't really want to see Asta in front of you ah ah even for some free damage).

About Sw it depends. If you duck, you should be in Sw or Wp, cause Cl don't give any good WS move.
The problem is, when Asta come close, the RO is not far away... Duck = risk of 66K = risk of RO.
But yes it can be an option in Wp or Sw. Sw alone don't give lot's of option... CS for finish him, 6B for a fast mid...
However 2A+K is very good against him cause he can only punish with crouch throw, which give you 50% to unthrow and have some range in this case.

But yes, once he is on you... he's the one who has the edge.
As I said before, I think it's 6-4 but some others like Scud don't agree with me.
However most Asta players agree with 6-4 so...
 
malek, I'll agree to the CL strategy against Asta.

However, in any way you look at it when Ivy is in WP, it seems that she'll have to risk more than Asta.
And WP 3A can be baited. His 44[A] has a bit more reach than WP 3A also.
If the Ivy player manages to outmind the Asta player switching through CL/WP, then Asta will eat a CF (probably), however, If the Ivy player guesses about two times wrong while in WP then it's game over for Ivy.
Also, another factor that may affect this matchup, is the stage selection. Smaller stages usually benefit Asta, while larger stages Ivy or neutral.

I may be wrong, but I really can't see why this isn't a 5:5
 
As I said before, Astaroth players don't agree with a 5-5.

Wp 3A is only against steppers. Astaroth 44[A] will loose to Wp 6B+K, it don't have enough range nor speed.
Ivy should never get hit during Wp 6B+K when carefull about range (some exceptions i wrote before).
When it happens, it's because Ivy didn't switch to Cl whereas Astaroth comes mid range.
22B[4] is not a 110 damage combo. It's not game over, it's just very harder to win.
Ivy also had some RO options. But smaller stage benefit to Asta yes.
 
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