Ivy matchups discussion and strategies

I need someone to double check this for me.
I was playing tonight against several good astaroth players and I noticed that I can stop the 66{K} option select using 6KB upon blocking.

I took astaroth to the lab and found...

so after blocking 66{K}

Ivy's 6KB will stop the following

Command Throw A
Command Throw B
6K (teh knee)
4K
1K
...basically mostly everything.

This seems like a huge deal for me because I dont have much astaroth matchup experience. But destroying the charged bullrush's option select really takes a chunk out of astaroth's game.

edit: this seems to work better when your back is to the end of the stage. Sometimes the fullbullrush pushes Ivy too far away.
I don't know...

Of course, Astaroth can meta game by not attacking after bullrush...in which case, Ivy may be at a disadvantage. bleh.


On another note...
Mitsurugi seems to be very VERY vulnerable to stepping to his right (88 on 1P side)
88K is extremely useful and negates like 90% of his rush moves
lol
 
neoghaleon said:
I need someone to double check this for me.
...
snip
...

Of course, Astaroth can meta game by not attacking after bullrush...in which case, Ivy may be at a disadvantage. bleh.
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6KB is only -11 on block, so as long as the B doesn't whiff, you're safe vs Asta. Since Asta is so tall, the B shouldn't whiff at most ranges, but we should probably double check


neoghaleon said:
I need someone to double check this for me.
On another note...
Mitsurugi seems to be very VERY vulnerable to stepping to his right (88 on 1P side)
88K is extremely useful and negates like 90% of his rush moves
lol
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I've found that 3B works wonders vs Mitsu.
(Not sure all the notation since I don't play Mitsu)
66BB - Ivy can 3B between the two. Depending on positioning, she'll either CH launch, or both will whiff.
3B BE - Same as above
 
Ring said:
No character has an answer to his 3(B) shenanigans.
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what about backstepping after blocking his 3(B)? SCH A_(A), SCH B and SCH K all whiff except for SCH KK; but after backstep you can block the second K of SCH KK. You don't get any free dmg for just backstepping, but 3(B) gets less annoying.
 
I'm not sure. I will have to check that.

Ok, so lately I've been playing more with Viola than Ivy, mainly to learn the character. I was gonna do Viola's punishment list, but the more I learn about her the more complicated this list becomes... SET 6B+K completely changes the frame data of most of her moves, for example her 3B is normally -14, but in conjunction with 6B+K it becomes positive on block. The move alone leads to ridiculous frame traps and 50/50 mixups.
 
Ring said:
I'm not sure. I will have to check that.

Ok, so lately I've been playing more with Viola than Ivy, mainly to learn the character. I was gonna do Viola's punishment list, but the more I learn about her the more complicated this list becomes... SET 6B+K completely changes the frame data of most of her moves, for example her 3B is normally -14, but in conjunction with 6B+K it becomes positive on block. The move alone leads to ridiculous frame traps and 50/50 mixups.
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Thats why viola is not fun to fight at all
 
I need some Mitsu help. I know there's been some suggestions made about him earlier in this discussion, but I feel like this matchup almost deserves its own thread. Here are my questions...

Who has the advantage in this matchup, Ivy or Mitsu?

How can you tell when a 4B is coming, and how do you make him fear using it?

I feel like he breaks my guard a lot, what can Ivy do to prevent this from happening? Does Mitsu even get much damage off a guard break?

Also, I need an answer to his 3B and 66B delayed followups. Ivy's 3B well step the follow up, but lose to Mitsu 4B if he instead follows up with that. Plus, Ivy's 3B won't do much damage in these cases.
 
He's one of Ivy's worst match-ups, in my opinion. It's 6:4~7:3 in Mitsu's favor.

You can't really tell when 4B is coming. He can use it whenever he wants because the frame data allows him that. He has very small block disadvantage after most of his pokes, so he can keep attacking or 4B. Worst part is that in order to punish 4B you need to anticipate it and 8WR/step at the right moment (otherwise the move will track). Moves like 6(A), 44(A) or 6(B)2_8 will always beat any 4B attempt but they are horribly unsafe, so if you guess wrong you lose 2~3x more damage than you could get yourself for guessing right.

He can get about 100 or 100+ dmg from a guard burst, depending on the amount of BE's used.

3B BE and 66BB force you to guess. I think if you use 214B it will beat both these delayed followups, but not punish the first move (3B is -16, 66B is -13). You can also step. It's important to see if Mitsu has meter, because if he doesn't then you can always punish 3B with no fear of the delayed followup.
 
You don't really have to time a step to get around Mitsu 4B. You just have to keep walking until the move passes you. There's a spot where it stops tracking. After it goes by you, take your free 80 damage.
 
Yeah... Mitsu's one of the characters I lose to consistently as Ivy. Especially because it seems like he can punish all Ivy's long range attacks with something devastating. Plus, he can easily end Ivy's poke game whenever he uses 4B. I'm beginning to think I should always pick Omega when fighting a Mitsu. I think he DNS B would be the perfect answer to his 4B.
 
He can punish Omega's DNS B with 6B8 for 32 dmg (the move itself is stupid good too, i14 with huge range and -2 on block), so it's never safe against him, except at tip range.

I think Mitsu is a pain for most characters, a lot of players will admit that he is a braindead character in SCV. You don't even need to play him seriously to beat good players, he's almost like Amy in SC4.
 
Ring said:
He can punish Omega's DNS B with 6B8 for 32 dmg (the move itself is stupid good too, i14 with huge range and -2 on block), so it's never safe against him, except at tip range.
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I didn't think about that. I figured with the TC frames of DNS B it MIGHT make a 6B8 punish whiff. But I guess not. At least maybe since it will make 6B8 whiff at tip range, you could punish the whiff with another DNS B?

But it seems like Mitsu might be one of those "if you can't beat him, be him" characters. Once I start using him I'll figure out his weaknesses.
 
KineticClash said:
I didn't think about that. I figured with the TC frames of DNS B it MIGHT make a 6B8 punish whiff. But I guess not. At least maybe since it will make 6B8 whiff at tip range, you could punish the whiff with another DNS B?

But it seems like Mitsu might be one of those "if you can't beat him, be him" characters. Once I start using him I'll figure out his weaknesses.
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Let me know if you find any, haha.

Yeah, if you do DNS at tip into another DNS B it should TC under 6B8 and hit Mitsu. But his 6B8 has really huge range so it may not be easy to tell if you are in the correct distance. Other than that DNS B is always -14 on block and it doesn't end in a tech crouch (Ivy can punish with 6B8K for 40dmg, but only at close range)
 
Ring said:
Let me know if you find any, haha.
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I'll find something ;]

I think it might have something to do with staying close range. That way he can't break down your guard with his long range sword attacks. And also, nearly every time you're at frame advantage with Ivy, you might want to 66A just in case he 4Bs.
 
I've been playing Mitsu myself for 2 months, but I really don't see how this character can have any serious weaknesses to exploit. He seems super solid everywhere.

You don't want to stay at close range against him with Ivy. He has tons of pokes with excellent block recovery and more importantly 2KB BE (which Ivy can't even normally punish hard on block, you must JG the secondhit) + one of the best wake ups in the game and great punishers. Because of this, he can be played abusively. He can attack at small disadvantage all the time with quick pokes and when you try to interrupt him, he will 4B. I have played against the best Mitsu players in the world (Belial, Akire) and they play in a similar way.

In a nutshell, it's a tough matchup. He's stronger than Ivy at almost everything and can punish her really well with 6B8 or B6. Even 6(B)2_8 i punishable by his 66A+B combo. I think my biggest problem with Mitsu is his frame data, he's too safe. A lot of his moves are close to being neutral on block.
 
Sorry for being off topic guys but I hope there is another patch for this game, and hopefully rugi's nonsense will be toned down a bit, because honestly I don't see how this game will hold up at tourneys if everyone has to deal with mitsu.
 
I think Mitsu is a pain for most characters, a lot of players will admit that he is a braindead character in SCV. You don't even need to play him seriously to beat good players, he's almost like Amy in SC4.
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Ring said:
I've been playing Mitsu myself for 2 months, but I really don't see how this character can have any serious weaknesses to exploit. He seems super solid everywhere.

You don't want to stay at close range against him with Ivy. He has tons of pokes with excellent block recovery and more importantly 2KB BE (which Ivy can't even normally punish hard on block, you must JG the secondhit) + one of the best wake ups in the game and great punishers. Because of this, he can be played abusively. He can attack at small disadvantage all the time with quick pokes and when you try to interrupt him, he will 4B. I have played against the best Mitsu players in the world (Belial, Akire) and they play in a similar way.

In a nutshell, it's a tough matchup. He's stronger than Ivy at almost everything and can punish her really well with 6B8 or B6. Even 6(B)2_8 i punishable by his 66A+B combo. I think my biggest problem with Mitsu is his frame data, he's too safe. A lot of his moves are close to being neutral on block.
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Okay, let me adress this.
- First, I agree that Mitsu is very much like Amy in SC4. He is very easy to use. Very effective. Very frustrating to play against.
- I am the person who has been vouching for Mitsurugi nerfs since the beginning. You can check my lists of Nerfs in Mitsu SA (it is different now, though, maybe I should post that).
- And I agree that Mitsurugi is good at almost every aspect of the game (after the patch he isnt good at GC, thats all).

However

- He is completely beatable to a point of "balanced" but at a very high level.
- I do not play similiar to Akire, from what I can tell our playstyles are _completely_ different. You've played me very long ago and more than a lot of have changed.
- I resent the notion of "cant punsih but w/o JG". I've been doing JG to 2KB since the first week in the game. Its so simple I cant believe nobody does it yet. It much simplier than JU in SC4 which everybody did. Thats not all: 99% ppl I played against do not punish 3B and do not step 3B(BE). They just stand there to block both hits. Or backdash. I deny such players the right to claim Mitsu unfair.
- Not a lot of moves are close to neutral, 2A+B, 6A, 33K, 66A+B are -2 on guard and 22A is -1. MST A+B is -3. That is about it. However it doesnt matter. What matters is the 4B , which makes this situations so difficult.
 
Belial said:
Not a lot of moves are close to neutral, 2A+B, 6A, 33K, 66A+B are -2 on guard and 22A is -1. MST A+B is -3. That is about it. However it doesnt matter. What matters is the 4B , which makes this situations so difficult.
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Some of those moves are really powerful even without being close to neutral. But I don't want to talk about potential nerfs, I just want to beat Mitsu >=].

Anyway, do you ever play online? I could use some Mitsu practice. Speaking of online, pretty sure a lot of people block 3B and don't step or punish because of online habits. It's often difficult to anticipate and step after 3B in online play.
 
I don't think online has anything to do with this. A lot of people just don't punish properly. With 3B you don't have to anticipate anything, once you see him use it punish or step.

Belial said:
Okay, let me adress this.
- First, I agree that Mitsu is very much like Amy in SC4. He is very easy to use. Very effective. Very frustrating to play against.
- I am the person who has been vouching for Mitsurugi nerfs since the beginning. You can check my lists of Nerfs in Mitsu SA (it is different now, though, maybe I should post that).
- And I agree that Mitsurugi is good at almost every aspect of the game (after the patch he isnt good at GC, thats all).

However

- He is completely beatable to a point of "balanced" but at a very high level.
- I do not play similiar to Akire, from what I can tell our playstyles are _completely_ different. You've played me very long ago and more than a lot of have changed.
- I resent the notion of "cant punsih but w/o JG". I've been doing JG to 2KB since the first week in the game. Its so simple I cant believe nobody does it yet. It much simplier than JU in SC4 which everybody did. Thats not all: 99% ppl I played against do not punish 3B and do not step 3B(BE). They just stand there to block both hits. Or backdash. I deny such players the right to claim Mitsu unfair.
- Not a lot of moves are close to neutral, 2A+B, 6A, 33K, 66A+B are -2 on guard and 22A is -1. MST A+B is -3. That is about it. However it doesnt matter. What matters is the 4B , which makes this situations so difficult.
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I was hoping you would post here =)

Yeah, I remember when we played I got hit by 3B BE all the time because I tried to punish 3B every time I blocked it. I had trouble keeping track on my opponents meter as well. But I don't know what else you can do about his 3B, you basically guess if Mitsu uses normal 3B (then punish) or 3B BE (step), if you always step after blocking 3B you will get nothing. As for 2KB BE, you're completely right.

I agree he's beatable. He's one of the best in the game, but there are more dangerous characters in this game, like aPat who wins a round after guessing right with two mids or two throws.

I didn't mean yours and Akire's styles are similar! I meant that both of you use similar setups for 4B but that's it. You play(ed) completely different from him, and you even used G button =))
 
KineticClash said:
Anyway, do you ever play online? I could use some Mitsu practice. Speaking of online, pretty sure a lot of people block 3B and don't step or punish because of online habits. It's often difficult to anticipate and step after 3B in online play.
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Online has nothing to do with punishment, on lag the game runs few frames slower, giving you time to react to throws, lows etc, thats why it seems so smooth.
Of course for some connections lag is still too much of an issue, but real advice is not to play vs ppl who have unstable ping/packet loss = bad internet connection. I only play on 4+ bars, which I advice for you.

Ring said:
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Always stepping is still better than just standing there. you can atack as early as frame 10 from step and 3B is -16, so stepping after is basically having a mixup at +6. My advice however is not to step, but to punish.
 
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