Just how strong is Nightmare really?

dittO

[09] Warrior
Ok, first of all, this is NOT a bitching thread.
I'm just curious about the community's thoughts about Nightmare.
Also, one of the reasons I made this thread, is because I have the feeling (also having seen some "tier-lists" here and there) that most people rank NM, AT BEST as a mid-tier character...

Not being a NM player and not having done my "homework" as I should (study more in-depth about frames etc), here is how I see NM:

- Probably the best RO game. Yes, I know Hilde's RO potential, but it feels like NM has more ways to RO.
- Probably the best W! game. I don't really know what's more dangerous: Fighting NM at an open stage or fighting him at a stage with walls.
- One of the best Spacing games. His side-stepping abilities are really good, perhaps way above average. But what really makes him divine in spacing is B+K...need I say more?
- One of the best (If not the best) tech-trap/anti tech-trap games. Keeps you guessing ALL the time. And the best part, is that most of his 50-50 choices lead to massive damage.
- One of the best Grab games. With a grab range rivaling that of Astaroth's and with so many options after both his front throws, it think his grab game is fearsome. There is also an issue with grabbing NM...somehow his deformed arm sometimes makes him...un-grab-able. This is no joke against players who know each other and mostly rely on mid/throw mixups.
Also, other good/great aspects of his gameplay:
- His damage outcome is way above average.
- Lots of frame traps
- Great whiff punishing
- Great anti Auto-GI tools
Finally some worth-mentioning moves:
- B+G: Can W! and can RO. Even If it doesn't RO, it places you near the edge, which is not a very good position against NM.
- A+G: Most times you can't afford to break B+G, so you'll eat this grab...Which is more damaging, plus it gives great wake-up/oki options.
- WS (iWS) with 236 or not: Great for punishing. Great for mid/throw mixups. Great for RO game. Great for spacing.
- GSA: auto-GIs verticals, so it limits opponent's options, even if NM player doesn't use it very often
- NSSA: Steps, TCs, has range, frame traps that lead to ROs etc
- 1K: Ranged low (adv on CH?)
- 33B: Whiff punisher
- 1[A]6: Frame traps, CF, mixup with K etc
- and of course lets not forget the divine B+K: Usefull even when NM is hit and being able to avoid almost 90% of the moves of the entire character roster, this move is clearly one of the best moves of the game.
- iagA: (forgot to mention earlier)

What NM lacks?
- CF game: One of the worst. He can still do a CF once in a while, but he has to...WANT to do it.
- A decent mid poke: I don't know If 3K is good enough.

What are your thoughts?
 

PANDA

[13] Hero
he's the easiest character to play.
IMO, his 1K is a better poke. his 3K is "okay" i guess... sometimes doesn't come out fast enough.
 

Nukleurfire

[09] Warrior
Doesn't he only have like 3 safe moves that aren't GBs? You're right, you haven't looked at his frames. He's also hella slow. His stances lose to 2As. NSS K and bA are high, same with GSA. The only frametrap with GS I can think of is 66K. 33B is no. Hey, I didn't know 1AK is + on block, that's cool.
 

dittO

[09] Warrior
hey pal how bout posting that stuff here.
No, I didn't want to post this at the NM SA.
However, If anyone thinks that it HAS TO be moved, then I'm ok ;)
he's the easiest character to play.
I disagree with that.
He's not one of the hardest either, but it requires deep knowlegde of the game to be able to at least compete with NM in general. The thing is that NM's gameplay is very different than most other characters. People that understand that, are the ones that KNOW what they are doing.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
NM is not even close to the easiest character to play, unless you are playing online (but this is offline discussion) and even then there should be easier characters

NM is roughly mid tier but he's kinda a wildcard character
 

dittO

[09] Warrior
Doesn't he only have like 3 safe moves that aren't GBs? You're right, you haven't looked at his frames.
Have you?
He's also hella slow.
Define "slow"
His stances lose to 2As.
Not always (depending on range factors), but even when he is interrupted...then what?
NSS K and bA are high, same with GSA.
So, I guess you are able to duck them on reaction...wow!
Hilde and Asta both have better ring out games. NM is too slow and unsafe.
Ok, I should repeat that it wasn't a bitching thread. But tbh i didn't expect...that kind of response...
Maybe I should have posted this at the respective SA. ;p
 

Nukleurfire

[09] Warrior
Have you? Err, a took a peak when you posted this thread :P

Define "slow" More than i17

Not always (depending on range factors), but even when he is interrupted...then what? 2A gives +

So, I guess you are able to duck them on reaction...wow! No guessing required. 2A his stance in most situations.

Actually you're right, I'm full of BS...
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
One thing that you failed to mention is NM's superior dashing speed, and his great side step. This makes his whiff-punishing game that much better.
 

microgamer

[10] Knight
- Probably the best RO game. Yes, I know Hilde's RO potential, but it feels like NM has more ways to RO. I still think Hilde is better. RO across the stage from a i21 mid. NM has GS KK which is good, but doom combo results in a lot more ROs despite how many ways NM can combo into GS KK.
...
- GSA: auto-GIs everything, so it limits opponent's options, even if NM player doesn't use it very often. It only auto-GIs verticals. Verticals != everything.
...
- and of course lets not forget the divine B+K: Usefull even when NM is hit and being able to avoid almost 90% of the moves of the entire character roster, this move is clearly one of the best moves of the game. B+K is good but I think you're over hyping it.
Everything else I can mostly agree with. In general one of his main flaws is that he's unsafe. GS A, NSS K, GS KK, and NSS bA are all punishable on block, not to mention they're all high (second hit of GS KK). If you're pro you can duck NSS bA and get a free back throw when NM is still spinning around in the animation. With that said, there are ways to get around these, but that opens you up to other harsh punishment. I'd say he can be a monster when played right, it's just that he is very risky most of the time. If he wants to score damage in these situations he needs to force the opponent to make mistakes.

One of the things that I haven't seen mentioned though is iagA, which is really one of the best things going for him. If anything of his is divine, it's this move.
 

dittO

[09] Warrior
@microgamer

thx for your answer ;)

- First, sry my bad about GSA...lol
- Now about GSKK, NSSbA & NSSK, yes they are unsafe, however, I don't think a NM player will use these moves outside of a combo. It's NOT these moves that are dangerous, but instead I'd say NSSA and WS If used correctly (range) can be very effective.
- About iagA, I completely forgot to mention it. It's indeed frightening ;p
- His RO game as I said is probably one of the best (meaning that other chars also have great RO game). I also mentioned Hilde's for obvious reasons. And of course it's not only GSKK the only move that makes NM's RO game good.
- Finally, about B+K, well perhaps you're right and I'm overhyping it. But sometimes it feels like shorter ranged characters whiff badly against this.

Also, about NM being unsafe and such, it's not that he can't play safe. Sometimes his range makes him safe and sometimes his spacing. Some characters cannot punish usually while others are able to punish for little damage and no advantage. Anyway, it short of feels like NM is perhaps a bit underrated by many, dunno.
 

Belial

King of Hundred Swords
NM is a very strong character, but requires good knowledge of the game and spacing. In my opinion he is high tier, but Sophitia is a difficult matchup.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
his best punisher in the i15 range-i17 range is iAGA, which is decent because of the knockdown.

Obviously NM lacks quick pokes, but he doesn't have any moves with a decent TC (11K being the best of hs)
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
yeah TC is one of his weak points

fastest TC is 66K. 11K has good TC as well. 44A has TC but no one uses it, and GS A has a small TC early on