Just how strong is Nightmare really?

lemme specify a high reward, low risk reliable and decent speed/ease of use TC

Sure not all characters have a TC move with all those categories...
 
WuHT: yea he certainly lacks a high damage TC

btw I don't consider Sophie a particularly tough matchup for him, it might even be even matchup because sophie is kinda lame now.
 
he belongs to the bad ass tier

on-topic, his most damaging TC move is

FC B+G/A+G which leads to tech traps and other stuff
 
He eats mids for breakfast and reacts with large explosions, he's obviously too good. He even asks you "What's wrong?" as he backhands you out of the air.
 
Also!!! He is one of the only character (if not the only) to have effective punch attack, and he can RO from all the freakin sides, front, backward, left, right, name them all and he shall do them!
 
Eyce_Theon said:
He eats mids for breakfast and reacts with large explosions, he's obviously too good. He even asks you "What's wrong?" as he backhands you out of the air.
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i actually loled at the "what's wrong?" part. that along with the "Feel my wrath!" quote are the only ones i can recognize. I'm sure most of his quotes are bad ass but no one can really make out what they say >.>
 
hteng said:
i actually loled at the "what's wrong?" part. that along with the "Feel my wrath!" quote are the only ones i can recognize. I'm sure most of his quotes are bad ass but no one can really make out what they say >.>
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I should actually correct myself, "What's wrong?" isn't as sufficient as "WHAT'S WRONG!?" to describe Nightmare's vocal abuse.

And lets not forget that he drowns you in the Cesspool of Darkness.
 
Akijo said:
Also!!! He is one of the only character (if not the only) to have effective punch attack...
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This is a pretty good point, although Yoshimitsu is pretty beastly with his punches. Vader and Apprentice have punches too, but most of them aren't nearly as manly as Nightmare's. Then Zasalamel has his pimp hand, which doesn't do damage unless it's into a wall combo.
 
If NM had an actual useful SG game, he could have the most alternative ways of winning the match, (RO, wallgame, oki) as opposed to just raw damage/speed/safety.
 
LAU said:
Nightmare can bench 260 pounds

-LAU
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Over 9000 times, LOL.
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dittO said:
Ok, first of all, this is NOT a bitching thread.
I'm just curious about the community's thoughts about Nightmare.
Also, one of the reasons I made this thread, is because I have the feeling (also having seen some "tier-lists" here and there) that most people rank NM, AT BEST as a mid-tier character...

Not being a NM player and not having done my "homework" as I should (study more in-depth about frames etc), here is how I see NM:

- Probably the best RO game. Yes, I know Hilde's RO potential, but it feels like NM has more ways to RO.
- Probably the best W! game. I don't really know what's more dangerous: Fighting NM at an open stage or fighting him at a stage with walls.
- One of the best Spacing games. His side-stepping abilities are really good, perhaps way above average. But what really makes him divine in spacing is B+K...need I say more?
- One of the best (If not the best) tech-trap/anti tech-trap games. Keeps you guessing ALL the time. And the best part, is that most of his 50-50 choices lead to massive damage.
- One of the best Grab games. With a grab range rivaling that of Astaroth's and with so many options after both his front throws, it think his grab game is fearsome. There is also an issue with grabbing NM...somehow his deformed arm sometimes makes him...un-grab-able. This is no joke against players who know each other and mostly rely on mid/throw mixups.
Also, other good/great aspects of his gameplay:
- His damage outcome is way above average.
- Lots of frame traps
- Great whiff punishing
- Great anti Auto-GI tools
Finally some worth-mentioning moves:
- B+G: Can W! and can RO. Even If it doesn't RO, it places you near the edge, which is not a very good position against NM.
- A+G: Most times you can't afford to break B+G, so you'll eat this grab...Which is more damaging, plus it gives great wake-up/oki options.
- WS (iWS) with 236 or not: Great for punishing. Great for mid/throw mixups. Great for RO game. Great for spacing.
- GSA: auto-GIs verticals, so it limits opponent's options, even if NM player doesn't use it very often
- NSSA: Steps, TCs, has range, frame traps that lead to ROs etc
- 1K: Ranged low (adv on CH?)
- 33B: Whiff punisher
- 1[A]6: Frame traps, CF, mixup with K etc
- and of course lets not forget the divine B+K: Usefull even when NM is hit and being able to avoid almost 90% of the moves of the entire character roster, this move is clearly one of the best moves of the game.
- iagA: (forgot to mention earlier)

What NM lacks?
- CF game: One of the worst. He can still do a CF once in a while, but he has to...WANT to do it.
- A decent mid poke: I don't know If 3K is good enough.

What are your thoughts?
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Mostly what you said is correct. Not much to say about all this other than A;ga is Godly..and he probably has the best Oki in the game. Second best step aswell.
Bad things you forgot to mention..
-NM is very slow, you can look at the frame data and tell.
-Almost all his really great moves are high. Chars that TC alot give him pain.
- He has....ALOT of bad matchups.
-2a on stances hurt. I remember you saying what do you do after a 2a? Well, considering you have advantage....I think you can try to mixup on him?2A on reaction to stances is easy too...just takes practice.
-NM is one of the most punishable characters in the game.

Does the good outweight the bad? I dunno...
I think once you've learned how the game works, and how matchups work. Its even. So, hes definitely mid tier imo.
 
here's my 2c

I personally believe NM is around mid tier as well..pretty much what Tiamat said.. however

a lot of players usually from US... believes that there's only top tier, near top tier, and crap tier.... so if you're not top tier or near top... you're playing a crap tier character.

It's extremely easy to list out NM's flaws if you generalize it.... you can easily say 2A beats out his stance... i'm not saying you're wrong... but if you honestly think 2A is enough you honestly need to stop playing SC3 NM and start and learn to play against SC4 NM...

NM 'sucking' is really from SC3.... since in SC4 NM's movelist is nearly untouched most players believe that the properties on his moves has also been untouched.. however... the subtle differences of the opponent's character and NM makes the key difference

example... B+K takes a HUGE step backwards compared to before.. making it an extremely viable move to use to outspace your opponent....

opponent's character 2A TC frames starts slower than before... making some of NM high hitting frame traps very viable against 2A happy opponents....

there's a lot more i can list that makes NM mid tier now compared to low tier before... but most of the stuff above is listed.


in the end.... whatever you believe in.... it doesn't really matter.... just enjoy playing the game and don't worry too much about tiers... because tier discussion = theoretical play not practical regardless of if you think NM is strong/weak

-LAU
 
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