Let's talk about Siegf's moves you don't use

6B is pretty bad.
Except against Algol. In that matchup it actually becomes one of Siegs best tools.
 
Stryker said:
• 4BBB:This move is awesome!! is i18 too so you can use to interrupt or else; I use it a lot as round finisher or gamble with doing one, two or the entire sequence.
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In my own 4B is useless because :
It's slow (yes, i18 is too slow for this kind of move), has poor range, is unsafe, is negative on hit for the 2 firsts, whiff a lot (even the first one hit), not confirmable and 4BBB is not combo in ch...
To interrupt I prefer real fast move, like 3K, 1K, 6A, 6K, B6, a+kA or 66K etc... Even you can interrupt somethings with i18 :CH 3B is far better.
Endly Siegfried has a lot of power mid.
3B (safeless but faster with really better range or damage, RO, Wall splat, etc.)
6B (less damage but : faster (i16 is not bad for interrupt) safe, excellent if blocked, better range, advantage on hit )
3A or 4K too.
I don't found any place for 4B... this sounds like a small BBB.
You said "Awesome" ? Can you explain deeper please ? :)


Thx.
 
I think the idea Stryker was having with 4BBB is not the move it's self but what can come after. He will use either only 4B 4BB or 4BBB. If he uses 4BBB alot he can then start using something like 4BB then catch the opponent off guard with a throw or something.

It works the other way round as well. Use 4B alot then suddenly throw out 4BBB for some damage. It's all about being unpredictable.
 
aG[A] :


BTW: I have re-mapped L1 (previously A+K) to G now I can pull of Aga with some consitency. but i'm still getting used to it. However because of this I can't play Lizardman online anymore, because A+K is very useful to him. and you can't change your move combinations online :(.

Anyways

aG[A] - Basically aGA but puts you into SRSH, in SRSH you are far out of range since aGA hits the opponent far. not even SRSH A+B is close enough. nor is move-stancing with SRSH foward your not in range. so whats the point of being in the stance if you can't doing anything from it? The only reason I think it may be useful if the opponent blocks aGA and you can SRSH K them <- That doesn't happen to often i'm sure. But the transition into SRSH may be too slow to beat the time it takes for the opponent to punish you.

TEST:Will SRSH K be useful after a blocked aG[A]? On Nightmare 1st Action Guard ALL 2nd Action AA and BB

1st Test 2nd Action BB: I did Ag[A] Nightmare blocked it and retalliated with BB, I tried to attack with SRSH K but it wasn't fast enough
2nd Test 2nd Action AA: This time AA whiffed and SRSH K just barely made it in time to hit Nightmare.
 
Mikey_R said:
I think the idea Stryker was having with 4BBB is not the move it's self but what can come after. He will use either only 4B 4BB or 4BBB. If he uses 4BBB alot he can then start using something like 4BB then catch the opponent off guard with a throw or something.

It works the other way round as well. Use 4B alot then suddenly throw out 4BBB for some damage. It's all about being unpredictable.
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I'm gonna give you the first medal to Siegfried's improvement; thinking about how been unpredictable its the only way we can find better strategies to keep winning after all this time when all the experienced players really know how to fight against Siegfried... its really easy, after watch some videos, which moves are often used by Siegfried players - so as these moves are really a few then its easy to learn how to deal with them; so we have to realized some ways to use the moves that only a Siegfried user knows.

Endnow
I'm really sorry about the short explanation about A+B uses; I use A+B to punish the rolling opponents that are near to me, the first two slash hit and I keep on SSH for a nice gamble post wakeup game; also I use this move when the opponent is trying to rush out, and using A+B I can change the game pace. I also use it as finisher because most of time opponents are trying to evade fall in a gambling game when short in health.

-Stryker-
 
Onlywing 2 things.
1. ag[a] is -8 on block as opposed to agA being +2... worst transition into SRSH he has I belive. If it hits there on the other side of the ring and your in SRSh.... whoop whoop.
2. Nightmares aa and bb are slow as hell in comparison to other characters.

Stryker:
Thats actually fairly smart considering SSH b and a will most likely both be in range which brings me to another point and Sacharja I hope your reading this.
4B+K into SSH is the BOMB! I use it after 1k and alof of quick replys whiff giving me a free SSH a / b mix up and furthermore after either of these hit you can safely go back into SSH and attempt another mix up. Mixing up SSH aa / SSh [a] / SSH ~ 4B+K / SSh SBH k or canceling and grabbing is a great turtling tactic against alot of characters IMO and you can see me using this to good effect in some clips from a tourney I played in today in the next week :).
 
1. ag[a] is -8 on block as opposed to agA being +2... worst transition into SRSH he has I belive. If it hits there on the other side of the ring and your in SRSh.... whoop whoop.
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I thought 44[A] was the worst transition he had.
 
Mikey_R
Yes, but the mix up is not outstanding at all. (Visible, unsafe and poor reward)
(Hey, you're from UK ! Did you go at SVB ?)


Stryker :
So, 4B is "awesome" because some people don't know how to deal with it ?? lol
So this is not because the move is good ?
Be unpredicable with rare move ? Why not (very few times I mix up BBB/BB 3B : that work if the opponent does'nt know), but with 4B the reward is too weak... even that works you loose your time ! Using 4B a lot is a waste of time.

Endly, even you beat your opponent with this kind of move, that will not work ad eternam. This is not a serious way of think to win in the future.

Why ?
*The mix up 4BBB/4BB throw (or anything else) is visible(very too easy) and can be interrupt or punish... unpredicable or not, if your opponent know it, you take damage in any way.
*Versus some character the third headbutt whiff whether your oppenent block the two first = spicy punishment...(fantastic move)
*Versus some character the second headbutt whiff whether the oppenent guard the first (punishment blabla.. the whiff has more unpredicable potentiel that the move itself, LOL)
*But maybe it was better in SC3 ?

There are other ways to be unpredicable, even your opponent knows your command list better than you !
But for this you need solid move.
 
Pantocrator said:
Mikey_R
Yes, but the mix up is not outstanding at all. (Visible, unsafe and poor reward)
(Hey, you're from UK ! Did you go at SVB ?)
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I know but it's the only way I found that could actually be viable. I personally don't use the move so it was all speculation.

And no I didn't go because I'm not a pro player. I only play for fun which for me is not at a competitive level.
 
@Pantocrator and anyone how doesn't know:
In SC, there has always been an auto output of character's Low Guard when Guarding against moves that have multiple hitting mid attacks. This is caused by simply and accidentally tapping 2 while holding G.
Example:
If I'm Guarding against Sig's 4BBB, and I accidentally tapped 2 (because of Mix-Up + gambles + uncertainties, I gambled a Low Guard for a split second and briefly tapped 2), my character will automatically duck and get hit by the 2nd headbutt.

This game-flaw can be used with any move that has multiple hitting mid attacks. It was discovered back in SC2 by a Cervy player. This flaw is still on the game, but I don't how much of the player's frame inputs, has the CPU to get, in order to output a crouch during these situations. This is pretty much the same as Ukemi time buffetings, to give an idea.

In other words, 4BBB, A+B, BBB, and other "insignificant" moves, have a finishing purpose, thanks to a natural game "flaw." If opponents don't fall for this, then you can be SURE that they didn't even tried to Low Guard, while you were attacking them. Remember, always pay EXTRA attention to your opponent. Check their reactions, define their purposes.

If all this turns out to be bull$hit, then I'm sorry. I'm no scientist.
 
endnow said:
Onlywing 2 things.
1. ag[a] is -8 on block as opposed to agA being +2... worst transition into SRSH he has I belive. If it hits there on the other side of the ring and your in SRSh.... whoop whoop.
2. Nightmares aa and bb are slow as hell in comparison to other characters.
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• aG[A] was a multi hit move in SC2; the transition to NSS(SRSH since SC3) was a low hit(when the sword is landing to get the stance is clearly a low hit, but since SC3 it doesn't work); ag[A] and 44[A] are the worst move to stance in the Siegfried's game actually, so its a tie.
• The great difference between Siegf and Night are properties; Night's BBB are guaranteed in CH but BB is guaranteed NC; Siegf's BB are guaranteed in CH only and BBB isn't guaranteed even on CH... crap.

As Jink said, moves like 4BBB and A+B have the property to punish a opponent mistake while on guard, that's the real trick behind the use of those moves. Jink you really explain it very well, thanks.

-Stryker-
 
Another good example of that, is Ivy's SE'BBB. If you slightly tap 2 while Guarding against the first B, your character will automatically crouch and get hit by the rest of the string. Its a buffering issue. But knowing this, helps to set up a confused opponent, and for not falling into this. Mainly, this prevents players from doing Shuffle-Guard, meaning that players wont blindly gamble their Guard inputs. Which is a good thing. One can set opponents to play straight, and less random. Forcing them to think, and to actually pay attention to the battle.

Shuffle-Guarding is a tactic used by many scrubs, but it is very punishable.
 
I still haven't found a use for 4BBB. or 4B in general.

Btw what is the best Anti-Roll/Ukemi move for Siegfried? He has few tech traps and his easiest one is easily blockable (1AA).
 
22_88 B is one good anti roll move.

If you use 1AA as a tech trap then they shouldn't be able to guard it. The idea behind a tech trap is it gives more damage if the opponent tries to get up to guard the attack. If they can guard the first hit then you didn't use it as a tech trap.

Eg. SRSH B, 1AA is a tech trap. Hit the opponent with SRSH B then immediately use 1AA it is guaranteed to hit but if the opponent tries to get up they will take more damage than if they just stayed put. I can't show the damage difference because I can't get to a PS3 or 360 with SC4.
 
With the 1aa tech trap they can often see and block the 1st A tho. I think its only Guaranteed after SRSH b and There are other options like 44b that I personally find more tempting
 
I know how the 1AA tech-trap works, but its just that its too slow for it to work effectively since people always see the first hit coming.

Btw: after SRSH B isn't 66B a better use of the stun given by SRSH B? I know SRSH B allows for B4 (Techable Right), 1AA and 66B.
 
onlywingedangel said:
I know how the 1AA tech-trap works, but its just that its too slow for it to work effectively since people always see the first hit coming.

Btw: after SRSH B isn't 66B a better use of the stun given by SRSH B? I know SRSH B allows for B4 (Techable Right), 1AA and 66B.
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??? O_O (Whaaat??)
Bro, 1AA after RSH'B is guarantee because the first hit of 1AA is hitting them on a "stand to grounding stun". Opponent can't guard against the hit from 1AA because the if the opponent pressed G, after getting hit by the first hit, they'll snap into Ukemi recovery (Ukemi is different from just getting up), which lets them vunerable against any mid or/and low, that matches-in the time-frame-length of the Ukemi.

The only "possible" way to avoid TechTraps similar to Sig 1AA, is by Ukeming away from the attack's "animation path." This has nothing to do with Tracking. Attack in SC have different start-up frame points, example:
1. P1-Sig does agA vs a P2-opponent who's running to Sig's left = opponent receives a late-frame hit from agA, i18 to i19 instead of i17, depending how much to the left, P2 was.
2. P1-Sig does agA vs a P2-opponent who's running to Sig's right = opponent receives an early hit from agA, i15 to i16 instead of i17, depending how much to the right, P2 was.

In other words, if the stunned P2-player Ukemies to Sig's right, it will get hit later than if Neutral Ukemi. I'm entirely sure, but in "1AA's distance after RSH'B" case, the 2nd hit is not guard-able, hence, is a TechTrap.

Ukemi has its duration frames, just hit the opponent with a mid/low during that time. Btw, this idea came from VF4evo, just to add a little history.

Edit: OnlyWingedAngel, my point is, opponents can't do sh*t about it. Is either get damage, or get more damage.
Other common option after RSH'B is 44~6B+K for more RSH'momentum MixUps.

And I wanted to add (if someone does not this) that in one of I.C.E. latest videos, he does 88 to a stunned opponent from RSH'B, then TechTraps him with RSH'K. After seeing that, I've been using it on any "opponent grounded" situation, and it works. But I haven't test if is avoidable by directional Ukemis. I know it works against neutral Ukemis.
 
Bro, 1AA after RSH'B is guarantee because the first hit of 1AA is hitting them on a "stand to grounding stun". Opponent can't guard against the hit from 1AA because the if the opponent pressed G, after getting hit by the first hit, they'll snap into Ukemi recovery (Ukemi is different from just getting up), which lets them vunerable against any mid or/and low, that matches-in the time-frame-length of the Ukemi.
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I know its guranteed. Idk where I said it wasn't. I just prefer to use SRSH B -> 66B.

and when I meant (people see it coming) I meant that when facing a grounded opponent they don't get tech-trapped very often from 1AA.
 
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