MAJOR Rock Patch Discussion

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D_Matt_Ma

[10] Knight
I think we should know by now that the next SC patch (if there is one) will be a major revamp. As shown Namco/Bandai has shown in the past, they like to make a fighter, followed by a patch, and then by a major revamp. This was shown in Tekken 5, Tekken 6, SC3, and in some ways SC2.

So in anticipation of the big patch, we have to start thinking big. No more little changes here and there. Those little changes will be made randomly just to keep things fresh. What I'm referring to are the new moves and radical changes that happen to characters, more specifically Rock.

So let's start throwing suggestions out there. Novel ideas and major move changes are what this thread is about. Be creative and bold. I'll start things off.

1) Rage Throws:

Rage Counter starts each round at 0
When a ground throw successfully connects, Rage Counter resets to 0
When a ground throw is broken, Rage Counter goes up +1
When Rage Counter is at 2, next ground throw will be a Rage Throw
Rage Throws cannot be broken
When a Rage throw successfully connects, Rage Counter resets to 0

Rage Throw (Feet First)
Damage: 45 (18, 17, 10)
Rock does his B Ground throw, but rather than letting go on the 2nd slam, immediately goes into the A ground throw (Animation similar to Rock's old ground throws from past SCs). Move will still have the juggle and ring out properties of the A throw, but the damage bonus of the B Throw

Rage Throw (Head First)
Damage 45 (10, 10, 25)
Rock does the first 2 headbutts of his A Ground Throw, then goes straight into the A Crouch Throw. Opponent is left grounded with the same followups of his A Crouch Throw, only with the added damage from the A Ground Throw headbutts.

2) Two handed Ground Throw
Input: 1A+B+G (Head First) and 3A+B+G (Feet First)
Break: Anything but A or B (including no input at all)
Damage: 5
Rock does a ground throw and if the opponent inputs A or B, Rock flips the opponent and changes their ground position. If they were Head First, they will now become Feet First. If they were Feet First, they are now Head First. The move gives enough frames for Rock to do another ground throw. If the opponent does not input A or B, the throw will be treated as broken. However, the opponent will not stay grounded (similar to what happens when the opponent breaks a Rock ground throw), but rather recover standing (similar to what happens when Astaroth's 1A+G/1B+G ground throw is broken)
 
heres a few of mine:

1.Making Falling Moon a A throw
2.Making Spike Hammer slightly faster, or just making it less time to charge and compensate it on making it less safe on Guard.
3.After 3a+g throw, they should at least give 3b+g additional damage bc it's only 1 more lousy damage then 22_B
4.Give Rock his own CF
 
Here's some of my ideas before.

1) Give Rock an air throw.. like Asta's.... any of them is fine.

2) Give Rock, Tackle from Marduk in Tekken

-LAU
 
Give Rock the tackle from the sword + shield CAS style in SC3. Or give it to Mina. Give it to someone.
 
heres a few of mine:

2.Making Spike Hammer slightly faster, or just making it less time to charge and compensate it on making it less safe on Guard.
4.Give Rock his own CF

I only like 2 and 4. I like 2 in that they should give a free crouch throw on GUARD similar to Astaroth's 9[B+K]

I like 4 for obvious reasons.

The Tackle is a great move from SC3, but I'm not sure it's for Rock. It doesn't fit his weapon animation.
 
I can't say I want to be too bold, BUT, for me its as simple as 66B hitting grounded, 4B KND on normal, or at least giving + on normal, and a command A throw. Thats all I want, forever and ever.

But the crazy side of me says Rock is so manly he should have moves with "super armor" similar to Potemkin from GG, that just dont care if you hit him during the animations. That would be hot =)

-Idle
 
Rage throws are an awesome idea. They should also add more attacks that hit grounded opponents so we're not reduced to using throws most of the time.

But if they don't want to work that hard. They can add K+G ground throws that require K input to break. So we'd ground throw more often than 50% of the time. And they should make some attacks that hit grounded opponents do more damage or be made a bit faster. Some ground hitting attacks spin the opponent. The spinning should be slowed down just a little bit so we have more +frames on ground hit. This may help us keep up the pressure on a grounded opponent.

Rock shouldn't mostly be about ground throws; there should be more useful ground hitting attacks.
 
I can't say I want to be too bold, BUT, for me its as simple as 66B hitting grounded, 4B KND on normal, or at least giving + on normal, and a command A throw. Thats all I want, forever and ever.

But the crazy side of me says Rock is so manly he should have moves with "super armor" similar to Potemkin from GG, that just dont care if you hit him during the animations. That would be hot =)

-Idle

Well, I've been pushing 4B normal hit knockdown since the game came out. It would fix a HUGE hole in Rock's game. Will they give it... who knows...

Super Armor idea is GREAT. But what move would get that property? 4A was the first move that came to mind.
 
LAU and me agree..lol..100%. I was gonna write down the explaination of the air throws, but I got lazy..lol. But here we go...quickly..


A+G in mid-air (feet closer than head): Asty's midair grapple of the feet, only it ACTUALLY rings out forward..lol. damage.. I don't know...40? 30?

A+G in mid-air (head clsoer than feet): rock grabs the less manly person by the face and simply throws them up high ...landly close in FRONT of him.. i guess think like asty's B+G on ground grab, only launches/rings out forwards.

B+G in mid-air (feet closer than head): rock grabs them EXACTLY like asty's mid-air A grab. EXATCLY (cuz everyone knows that asty came before rock which is why all of rock's moves are shitty versions of asty's for the most part o.O)

B+G in mid-air (head closer than feet): rock grabs them mid-air by the torso and slams them in front of him. BUT WAIT!! if you hold B while he is doing the grapple and release at the right time he will still hold onto the foot while slamming them on the ground and then flow them over his shoulder without looking and shouts "upsie daisy!! lol

I disagree with k break ground throws...as I disagreed with K break throws generally period (use to ahve them in sc2...they are gone for a reason I think).

a super armor kinda "charge" type of throw would be nice. It would be kinda similar to geif's throws in sf games... the ones where he raises his arms and then walks towards the person. But for rock's he's jsut take a quick football scrimmage stance and then lunge at them in a "take-down" manner similar to leon from the DOA series. Once on the ground he can press A's or B's to hit them with his fists (a) or head (b). If the opponent guesses right than they kick him off of them, both character's at neutral frames again with a slight distance. The first hit of the tackle would do about 30 damage and each hit would do 10 (up to 4 hits). The super armor would just be a simple (doesn't take damage or get stunned..blah blah) once he is into a certain frame of his "tackle stance." You could also cancel the tackle stance by press G and 2, 6, or 4. G2 would have him just stand straight up again..the fastest recovery fo the three. G4 has him hop a little backwards, this is the slowest of the choices, but it tj property could be useful. And g6 has him lunge forward, without the un-interruptable grapple at the end. It would still have the armor properties until he stood up from the lunge. He'd stand up and be at neutral frames, but it won't be TOO hard for the person to realize that they aren't on the ground already... nonetheless... it gives you a sort of mix-up with the tackle cancels.

ohh...and give him an A+B or SOME kind of ground throw that can't be broken. does 20 -40 damage.... doesn't have to be as good as asty's, but some GUARANTEED option.

and change the good man's CF for fuck sake. make the muther fucker scream BANNNGGOOOOOO at the end of it like he should... lol. I want a MANLY CF... how about this. he walks up to them, swings and knocks them to the ground, grabs them by the foot and swings them in a 360 rotation 3 times adn then launches them up into the air REAAALLLY high. Then he spins once or twice as they come near him (think shot-put) and then smacks them homerun style and it pans out with the opponent's body being "comet-esq" and rock beating his cheast (with his non-weapon hand) three times and then lifts his weapon and screams BANNNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
 
I am gonna be negative and say that you are forming a huge assumption when you say the next change/patch will be a DRASTIC one.

I hope it happens for you though!
 
honestly... this thread is so sad :(

it's one of those wish list thread that'll never ever happen. It's like all these great ideas that'll never come true... honestly... if we wanna make Rock better or even broke... everybody can have wonderful ideas... but chances are we might not even get 1.04....


I often wonder if it's because people were bitching like no tomorrow at 1.03... and like i said before they got the wrong impression and stopped all patches....

-LAU
 
that and the fact that they don't have a huge reason to make patches for the game right now. The sales are obviously way down for it...more so because sf4 finally came out. I doubt anyone but themselves and money has made a difference in deciding to patch or not. They probably don't care if rock sucks as long as ivy doesn't have an infinite, yoshi doesn't do 100 damage and ringout off simple simple combos etc etc. When they make patches its mainly to debuff someone, not to buff others *tear.

but this is a proactive happy funland post LAU!! no sad stuff allowed!! only bunnies and rainbows and just frames and non-10000 frame moves!!
 
honestly... this thread is so sad :(

it's one of those wish list thread that'll never ever happen. It's like all these great ideas that'll never come true... honestly... if we wanna make Rock better or even broke... everybody can have wonderful ideas... but chances are we might not even get 1.04....


I often wonder if it's because people were bitching like no tomorrow at 1.03... and like i said before they got the wrong impression and stopped all patches....

-LAU

I fully, fully agree with the last two paragraphs. Huge revamps in previous games occurred in arcade releases right? Or before the game came out or will come out. But, I just posted the thoughts of Rock that I had a while ago without even thinking of possibility of patching--just for fun :P.

Hopefully thinking of how Rock can be improved will not get in the way of our tendency to figure out new ways of using Rock's abilities. ^^

K throws, perhaps a bad idea :S. But, for sure, more emphasis should be put on ground-hitting moves. They should actually be decent alternates to ground throws.
 
honestly... Rock is low tier for many reasons...

Weakness:
1. Weak guaranteed combos
2. Fairly weak ringout... if i have a crapload of life as long as i don't eat a counter it's pretty hard to get ringed out... fortunately his throw options does enough damage when they refuse to get RO...
3. Slowest character in the game, this makes certain setups/stance ridiculously hard to beat when they shouldn't be that big of a problem... example... just trying to figure out how to beat NM's GS stance when most characters can just simply do 2A to beat it.

Strengths:
1. One of the best wake up game...
2. Pretty much same as above reason.. but when momentum is on Rock's side.. it really gets Rock going.. it's very possible for him to finish someone off based off one bad/wrong guess the opponent made.
3. Best throw range.... if not best.. 2nd best... but probably best.
4. Ground throw break = rock's advantage.... so even if you guess wrong.. momentum is still on your side... this is important because.. if you make the wrong guess with another character, you don't exactly get to keep the momentum/advantage.

Mediocre stuff:
1. CF game.
2. tech traps.

-LAU
 
honestly... Rock is low tier for many reasons...

What the great Lau said.

-LAU

I disagree Lau. The strenghts you listed were what I used to think were strengths too. The truth is, he has a sub-par wake-up game. I just got destroyed by mikosu online EVERY SINGLE GAME (except 2). It was ridiculous. If he breaks my throws, I lose. If I land my throws, he simply lays grounded and breaks throws. All that unsafe hard work for a 50/50 mix-up that isn't even threatening. At least with Asta, both throws are big threats.

My belief as to why Rock is low-tier is because the guy has no pokes... At all. No other character in the game can say that. So fast guys can just pound away and slow guys can just sit there.
 
I'm feelin' that rage throw concept. All the regular move adjustments I'd suggest were already mentioned except 214AAA. Mobility and un-JIable last hit plz kthx. A guaranteed option off of CH 6K would be ossome. To be greedy I'd like some range added on his space-control moves like 44A. Asta should NOT be better the original darn it.

Draco: Like LAU said tho once he has momentum it's hard to stop him. When I was mashing throw breaks 2A+K hit. If I kept rolling you ran up and threw me. If I stay grounded (which I usually do) I'm still at your mercy. I felt the pressure trust me. The throws are 50/50 sure but when you start anticipating how they deal with Rock his oki is top notch IMO. Some better lows wouldn't hurt of course.

P.S. I fail against Maxi. Feel free to use him more on me.
 
I dunno how great it is to base rock experience with online rock experience.

The reason i say this is simply because you need to do the 'jf dash' after he breaks your throws... i can imagine failing to do that if it's online.. heck i sometimes mess this up offline....

without the dash after the throw break its' kinda useless

finally... if the guy just likes to stay on the ground... there's other options... here's mine.

1) GT... yes.. he can break it so what? you get frame advantage... if you do the 'jf dash' he's still under pressure.. i can often land GT -> break -> GT again... simply because the guy refuses to get up.... if they do get up they are definitely asking for mixup... if the guy likes to interupt you remind him you got 6K which NOTHING can beat 6K out post GT break.

2) wrong GT on purpose..... yes you heard me... i sometimes PURPOSELY do the wrong GT... simply because it gives frame advantage and my opponent usually get caught off guard.. stands up... for me to get a nice regular throw on him... once again... frame advantage for you... catching them off guard usually leads to no throw break.... and even if they know this little gimmick... they can't avoid the fact you have frame advantage.

3) 1K/1K GT.... i actually found use for 1K GT... for those who are GT throw break happy sometimes they get hit by 1K the forget about the canned 'unguaranteed' GT afterwards so they fail to break it... leads to your victory... and if they are happy mashing and remembers.. once again 1K on ground leads to frame advantage.

4) 22B.... this is one of those places where.... you can force them to stand up. even on block you win.

5) taunt/fake -> mixup... there's certain wake ups that even after the taunt.. you have frame advantage... another good way to land moves like 4A+B or simply to do some animation to get them stand up to throw them.


Maxi online = godtier.... simply because you can't attack when you want to .... you can't duck when you want to.

-LAU
 
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