NEC Raphael impressions

Discussion in 'Raphael' started by KowtowRobinson, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    I got a chance to play a demo build of SC5 this past weekend at NEC. I played Raph almost the entire time both days, even got to participate in the 16 man exhibition tournament, which was really cool for me. Vids will be up soon, they won't show everything I found (played a little nervous =( ) but it should give you some more insight on the character.

    Overall impressions:
    - The game itself feels much better, in terms of game speed and overall pacing. Quick step helps this immensely, and EX/Supers add exactly what they were meant to add.
    - Raph seems really strong. Even easier to keep people at range or push them out, better pokes up close, and at least one very dangerous step killing tool. Frames on hit overall seem better, but that goes for everyone it seems. Does a decent job guard crushing as well, which gives you CH on your next hit btw so 3b prep combo is free.
    - I didn't sit down and really test anything at length, mostly because this is an older build. Also there was no winner stays system, and on day 2 we only had one game at a time. Plus I was having too much fun winning lol, sue me I guess.


    -22A I'm starting with this because it's my favorite new normal they gave him, step killing high with great range that gives a spin stun on CH long enough to guarantee his super. Maybe %30 percent life if you land it. That being said, if you're not early enough in their step they can still block, and a CH at tip range isn't close enough for the super to land. Couldn't find anything except super that would connect, which was odd given the length of the stun. Regardless of it's shortcomings, this shit WILL make people think twice about stepping.

    -22B is the same on it's own, MAYBE better on block? Doesn't go into prep, but guarantees super on any hit. About the same damage as 22A>super. Gotta input the super fast though, and I've had it whiff off axis a couple times. You'll be using this much the same way as your old SC4 combo from 22b, just easier. Without meter, you can 66a+b for a combo.

    -33A is his old WS A, horizontal mid. Seems ok, I would have used it more if 22a wasn't so amazing. You'll find uses for a horizontal mid though lol.

    -3A is his old prep A. On CH it gives a fallback stun (butt stun) but doesn't appear to give the full 3b prep combo anymore. I probably should have used this more than I did, honestly. It still seems pretty useful.

    -6BBB series is back to the old SC2 style, functions pretty much the same. Might be EXable, the Prep BBB string is but I didn't try it for 6bbb

    -BBB is his old BB string with SC4's 6BBB ender tacked on. It's NCC which is nice, but normal pokes like this are weaker across the board, damage wise. Still BB on it's own seems better on hit, which is nice.

    -AA is about the same, I actually forgot to see what 6a does now though. Just now realized that, damn.

    -1A is the same except probably even less damage, if you can believe that. They really nerfed the damage on little roachy pokes like that, which I understand.

    -old 1K and 1B are now 11K and 11B respctively. They seem unchanged for the most part. New 1K is a high turning kick that was in SC4 I think, but I never used it. 1B is a mid now, steps forward with an upwards swipe, can't remember the SC4 command but it was an ok move to toss into oki mixups I guess.

    -66A is still SC4 style but seems to track better, which is nice. 66K seems unchanged, as does 44K.

    -66B has guard break properties now, I was hitting people with prep BB afterwards but I don't think it's guaranteed. It's close, though. Combo with prep A+B, or 66A+B if you don't enter prep. Super might work as well, but honestly you should just enter prep with this now. Seems totally linear, which is a slight nerf seeing as it tracked left in SC4, but I'll take the new guard break properties over that anyway.

    -33B is the same move, but seems a little better hitbox wise. I missed it off axis a few times but I can't think of a case where it just went between their feet and whiffed like in SC4. Slightly improved, still somewhat useful.

    -66A+B seems unchanged, still hits grounded for combos. 66B+K is his old 11B, seems unchanged.

    -2A is still awesome. Complemented well by his new WS B, a simple quick rising slash that seems like is has good frames on hit. Having this new WS B helps him in close a lot, a great and simple little change to Raph that makes a big difference.

    -WS A and WS K however, I didn't find as much use for. Both are high and seem unremarkable, substitute 22A or 4k out of crouch instead. Spent most of my time after a 2k/2a hit just mashing out WS B or 6k though.

    -FC 3B is his old WS B, and still reaches pretty far and gives a good stun on hit. I didn't use it as much though, since in close I just opted for the new WS B, and at range I was having too much fun with other moves lol.

    - 6k and 4k seem to be about the same, btw.

    -44b is his old Prep A+B on steroids. Dodges back as far as Xianghua/Leixia's 44b AT LEAST if not more, and hits even further forward. I nailed people with this constantly, it's easily one of the best moves of it's kind. Never got punished for it on block, so I dunno if it's safe. Obviously it's very linear, so you can't just throw it out there whenever you want. But goddamn that move is nice, big improvement over his old 44b imo.

    44A,B wasn't something I used much, mostly because in close I just stuck to quick pokes and trying to get away again. I used more 4k and 2a in close to kill step, unless I was trying for 22A. Still goes into prep, that's about all I can say.
    -3b seems about as good as ever, except you lose the 3b, prep A frame trap shenanigans on slower characters. See prep section. Otherwise, nothing really new.

    -4b seems a little worse, not sure how, maybe just because I don't have old prep A to follow up with lol. Didn't use it that much.

    -33kb I didn't test much at all, don't ask me why. I heard from IdleMind that it's pretty sick though, 2nd hit may have guard break properties (wtf?)


    -Prep actually seems a little weaker in one area, in that you don't have the old prep A for CH setups. However it's got some new tools to play with.

    -New Prep A,B (hold for prep) string, I didn't have as much success with it as I thought I would. Seems like it's natural combo, but the A is a little slower, and the string is all high. I didn't use this much.

    -Prep B string seems to function the same, except that the JF at the end is replaced by a new EX string of Prep B,B,A+B+K. Rapid stab at the end for good damage. Big thanks to Hawkeye for telling me this because I didn't find it until late Sunday. Not sure if I managed to get it on video or not.

    -Prep K is his old VE K. It seems safer, otherwise it functions about the same as far as I can tell. EXable as well for a second kick that guard crushes, but looks high. Could add extra ring out distance as well, but I didn't connect with it for a ring out. Does good damage though.

    -Prep A+B is a new move, he dodges backwards like old Prep A+B (new 44B) but instead strikes low. I landed it a lot as a day 1 gimmick (not ashamed either lol) but in the long run I see it just being a combo ender for his 66b. You could try 3B, Prep A+B and empty 3B into 44b, as they look somewhat similar when dodging backwards and are low/mid respectively, but they're both completely linear.

    -Prep 214 is a backstep with an auto GI, seems to do all mids. Window is pretty lenient from what I can tell. Unsure if anything is truly guaranteed after the auto GI, since his only option is to go back into Prep. There are no new attacks out of this. Even if nothing is guaranteed though, it will still be pretty useful with some practice. I didn't have as much success with this as I probably could have, spent most of my time trying to mash people up with SE, SPEAKING OF WHICH........

    Shadow Evade B (B is for baller)

    -Shadow Evade only occurs once now, and it's amazing. All 3 moves that I found from it are godlike. I dunno if it has more moves because I was having too much fun with the ones I found lol.

    -SE A is a horizontal MID now. Huge improvement. Not sure if it's advantage on block or not, because nobody fucked with me after blocking it. It looks good on block though. No crazy CH stun that I could find, but it gives really good hitstun anyway.

    -SE B is a mid thrust with incredible range, pushback on block, and stun on normal or CH that guarantees a 3b prep combo. Wait till you see how far this shit pushes back on block you will piss yourself. Probably my favorite new move overall, since it's even better than old SEB B and you can do it faster now. Max range 3B, SE A/B was something I was using often.

    -SE K is a low sweep kick. Much less range than A or B, but a fast low none the less. KD on hit. No idea on block because nobody blocked it lol. Gotta be unsafe though, and requires you to enter SE at range. I like the move anyway, but I'm unsure how long it will stay useful.


    -236236A+B+K is everyone's command. Raph's is a close range uppercut motion, and I think most of you have seen what it looks like by now. Comboing this off 22A or 22B was my main use. I nailed a couple of people with "wakeup super" when I caught them doing slow moves though lol, so it is pretty fast. It's not invincible, none of these supers are. They're not as unsafe as you might think, across the board. I can definitely punish Patroklos super with raw super of my own, but it seems like only very fast moves punish supers in general.

    I'll do my best to answer any questions, but keep in mind that this build is already outdated. Also don't ask about frames, for obvious reasons lol.

  2. Kirio4

    Kirio4 [09] Warrior

    Thanks for the info KowtowRobinson (y)
  3. Leshain

    Leshain [10] Knight

    Forgot it
    Ty for the new info, one question from me though, hows the battle pace feel directly compared to SCIV? if you had to rate speed levels from 1 to 10?
  4. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    Dunno about a 1 to 10 scale, and keep in mind I'm hopelessly biased and the #1 SC4 hater on these forums lol. (Maybe.) But it's definitely faster overall, advantages from moves on hit seem to be better across the board compared to SC4, and step guard is almost eliminated. It's not at the level of failed evades in the VF series, but it definitely takes a bit to guard after a quickstep.
  5. dmcking

    dmcking [09] Warrior

    thx for the new info
    some questions
    - did u try 4A ??
    - 6.4. 2.8 B+K series still exit ??
  6. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    4a is the same move, but I never used that in SC4 anyway lol. I'm not sure what it does on counter hit, since I'm sure that's what you're really after here haha, sorry. Dunno how much you'll miss it, step 22B > super is really good.

    The directional B+Ks I think were still there, I got the downward one while I was looking for his 2A+B low, which btw I couldn't find. But again I never used those moves anyway.

    Also A+K looks like a counter stance, animation is like his SC4 teleport but without any special effects. Not sure what it does, nobody hit me during it.

    Vids are archived on 8wayrun's twitchTV account, here's the link.

    Exhibition starts at 29:00 approx. If you have to skip to the Raph sections (watch everyone though, it was a fun event and we got some good insight on the game from Yoshi) it's on part 2 at 6:50 vs Patroklos and at 45:30 vs Ivy/Pyrhha.

    EDIT: lol apparently Yoshi has never seen Raph's kG dance and called it "kowtow step." Wouldn't be fair if that stuck though, it's been around since SC2 I think haha. Either way I had to rep that Raph dance on the stream.
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

    Thank you ! Time to lose 2 hours of my life watching, then reading, then replying!

    Lots of very interesting comments there
  7. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    Pretty sure 11A is the same as 44A like in SC4. As of this build, which again is an old build, I wasn't able to find his old 2A+B. Speaking of directional inputs for A+B though, I used 8A+B a few times and it did in fact hit standing opponents reliably. Odd moves like that with little practical application seem to be getting new life to them, especially with Maxi. For example, I saw Maxi's old 236 A low, the one that used to be punishable on hit, cause a bit of a trip stun on hit when some new player got it by accident. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a move like 8A+B be more useful this time around.
  8. Azure

    Azure [09] Warrior

    Skull Maru
    Thanks for the write up kowtow ;) Hope the dev team has been reading the Raph forum and improving him since the old build.
    Fendante likes this.
  9. Mandritti

    Mandritti [09] Warrior

    Guardbreaking 66B makes all other slow linear moves irrelevant.
    ... oh that's why I dislike it.

    Offers the question of what 66A+B is doing now. Can it be combo'd? Is it in fact 'slower' the way it looks, or is the environment taking away its 'faster slow move' status?
    Did 8A+B do that in previous iterations of the game? Miss standing opponents?
  10. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    You'll find uses for his other moves still, 66b isn't THAT godlike lol. You can't possibly be hatin on him getting such a nice buff to that move, wait till you try it. You'll like it. Also 66a+b seems about the same, as I said earlier. You'd use it pretty much the same as you always have, I think. If it's faster/slower than SC4, it's barely noticeable. Again I can't give you guys frame data, lol.

    As for 8a+b whiffing standing opponents, don't take my word for it lol, ask the people who played Raph hardcore in these past games about how much they use that move.
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    1.Prep SE moves being absurdly good doesn't really surprise me (as SEB moves were pretty beastly in SC4). What I want to know is how well prep214 functions as a way to prevent people trying to interrupt SE (which already crouches highs).

    I understood that was not something you got to feel for in NEC (so much to try out), but all Raphs will eventually have to at least understand the best ways to get into SE stance from prep.

    In fact, with both SE and prep214, I have yet to see a single reason why you would ever use a high against Raph if he does prep-entry moves. Hopefully this will allow Raph to step freely after not shifting to prep in preppable moves.

    2. From my understanding his SC2 4A is now his 22A which leads to great things on CH. That move looks great because it doesn't look like it whiffs randomly to one side or up close (like SC4's 22A, 22K, 66A) so it's reliability looks to be super awesome (like SC4 4A). Couple that with the CH and I agree that it looks to be one of Raph's key moves for step-kill at a distance.

    3.8A+B's first hit had really piss range (worse than 2A) and it was high, so thats why it was barely useable.

    4.I don't see why anyone would want 236B over the new improved 66B. It looks to be barely faster and longer range, but does not have the awesome GB frames and combo potential. In fact, 66B probably boasts a bigger TC window
  11. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    Yes, yes and yes to all points on 66a+b. I'm not certain yet that Prep A+B will be the most damaging option off 66b yet, but it looks damn cool lol. Caught Woahhzz with it a couple times before he switched to Pyrhha and shat all over my game with his asian reaction time lol. I probably could have used 66b more than I did honestly, even from up close, but I wasn't used to the idea of it being used that way yet. Stopping their step with 22A > super WILL make people stand still and guard, believe me.

    If any of you get your hands on the game in Cali coming up soon, then you've got some things to try. Get some footage out there, I'm sure you guys that have been playing Raph all along can one up me easily with some new technology lol.

    I dunno man, 236b is still pretty fucking fast. I tried to punish Patroklos pop'n fresh with it and got 4b somehow, don't even ask because I don't know how that makes sense either lol. Maybe there will be different uses for 236B, we'll have to wait and see. Even if not, I'll take the new 66b just as it is, thank you much lol.
    Azure likes this.
  12. Azure

    Azure [09] Warrior

    Skull Maru
    whoa now, 236B is legendary :)
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    lol "CLEAN HIT" properties may be its selling point.

    I know what you mean, as I'd probably feel more comfortable with 236B, but I cannot deny that I see some redundancies with 66B and having 66B show up superior in several categories.
  13. WARUI_NE

    WARUI_NE Prettier than you

    Is 3b still 0ish on block going to prep
  14. Signia

    Signia [13] Hero

    I'll see if I have time to look at Raph after Yoshi, Pat, Xiba, Cervy, Aeon, Sieg, fuuuck I want to play them all and study them o.o
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

    lol you should do it in reverse order
    you should do it in reverse order... just for the benefit of mankind!
  15. Black_Dog

    Black_Dog [09] Warrior

    Thank you so much for the analysis.
    I watched the video and I loved the A+G, CE wall combo. Compared to a video I watched some time ago (Raph vs Hilde), Raph's CE seems to combo more consistently.

    Does the 3(B), prep BB natural combo still exist ?
  16. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    Maybe? Prep BB frame trapped afterwards, or at least it felt that way, so I wouldn't expect any major changes there. And yes 3b prep BB seems to be guaranteed on normal hit still. If you manage to make them freeze afterwards (easier than you think due to prep K being the spin kick now) then you're at a good range for SE K to hit. And it WILL hit, nobody is gonna duck with Evade A and B being so damn good. Yoshi said it himself while I was playing Woahhzz, all 3 buttons are very strong out of SE.

    Also Signia your build likely won't have the new characters yet.

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