New frames, new thread!

Just letting everyone know I fixed all the fucked up PO shift data on the wiki except for some of the moves that Mekki cancels into PO.

Can someone test how many frames it takes for 214 to go right into a PO move?

For example, how fast is 214 B without doing a move that shifts into possession, but rather just standing from neutral position and inputing 214 and then B?
 
I found out that her Dragon Wheel (PO 8K) is safe on CH and maybe on Stun Hit.
No advantage but unlike on normal hit it's safe.

Don't know the exact frames i'll check those later.

Makes it a good way to deal with those pesky 2As and maybe throws while you're in PO.
Although you don't get advantage the damage is not that bad and since you are farther away and safe the opponent may whiff/get blocked, allowing you to whiff/block punish.
 
??? How do you find these frame data moves??? I know where to look for them on the wiki but how do you test for yourselves? How are you finding out that so and so move is -whatever than CH? Just wondering. So I can help and test out too.
 
http://www.8wayrun.com/f6/frame-data-and-you-a-laymans-guide-t3702/

http://www.8wayrun.com/f6/frame-of-reference-t1536/

These are two threads about frames. Generally you just compare what you wanna test with the frames of reference.
I found that last PO 8K thing out while trying stuff on the Dummy in practice mode.

I programmed the dummy Taki on 1 action stand normal, 2nd action start command. I recorded 2A as command to see what PO stuff will evade or beat a 2A after which move to PO.

For example after a 33_99A PO on hit, a PO 8K will beat their 2A and when my PO 8K hit the dummy who was trying 2A i got the CH and i saw that the Hit Stun looked different from the normal hit.

Then i switched the counter hit on in the practice pause menu, and set the Dummy to 1st action stand normal, 2nd action start command (i recorded a fast punisher as command, with Soph, 236 B because that was better than Taki's punishers due to range)
So when i CH the dummy with PO 8K and he tried to Punish with the fastest punisher, but couldn't, i knew PO 8K was safe on CH.

You can just switch Counter Hit on and off in the Practice Pause Menu and then do moves to test their recovery on hit, CH or block, by programming the Dummy to 1st action stand normal/stand guard, 2nd action start command, record attacks and see what beats what after what.

And you can do it the other way around by programming the dummy to do certain sequences of moves and you try to interrupt. Or just to see what's punishable and how. This is the easiest way.

The Dummy in practice is your best friend in this learn how to program him to test and COMPARE stuff.
PS.: Don't use 2nd action attack, because them attacks seem to always come out 1 or 2 frames later than possible.
Always use start command and record the moves yourself.

I hope this isn't too complicated but that's how i do it. If you have further questions feel free to ask again.
 
ya that's basically how it's done, but you have to be careful when you are using the dummy to perform complex moves on the 2nd action.

say you have sophitia set to guard all, then 236B, like in the example above. the recovery from the first move you do will affect how the dummy responds, because it is inputting the command immediately after guarding-- it doesn't wait until it is recovered from block; it's as though it is buffering the input from the blocking state. so if you have it block 33A, it might respond with 236B early and end up only registering 6B, for example. usually for this type of scenario, i stick with spammable inputs for the second action like [2]AAAA, or BBBBB, since SC4 is somewhat spam-buffer-friendly, and then i'll repeat the test just to be on the safe side.

but really it's best to record the more complex moves such as 236B or 22A, have the computer do them, and try to interrupt/punish/whatever yourself.

i hope that's not too confusing :)
 
LKV said:
ya that's basically how it's done, but you have to be careful when you are using the dummy to perform complex moves on the 2nd action.

say you have sophitia set to guard all, then 236B, like in the example above. the recovery from the first move you do will affect how the dummy responds, because it is inputting the command immediately after guarding-- it doesn't wait until it is recovered from block; it's as though it is buffering the input from the blocking state. so if you have it block 33A, it might respond with 236B early and end up only registering 6B, for example. usually for this type of scenario, i stick with spammable inputs for the second action like [2]AAAA, or BBBBB, since SC4 is somewhat spam-buffer-friendly, and then i'll repeat the test just to be on the safe side.

but really it's best to record the more complex moves such as 236B or 22A, have the computer do them, and try to interrupt/punish/whatever yourself.

i hope that's not too confusing :)
Click to expand...

As long as you don't use moves with big block stun, The dummy should be able to respond properly i.e. with the move you recorded.

Another thing which supports what LKV means i think: When you try strings make sure that you only hit with the last attack of said string when you want to test it's recovery.

Fast strings like Taki's AA will mess up the reaction of the dummy because of the hit/blockstun.
Slow strings will result in the dummy eating the 2nd attack of said string, also ruining his response.

Hey LKV what do you think about PO 8K on CH?
 
you orphaned us, but we turned out alright. we're using our powers for good now.


Flesh, i've never really looked into PO 8K because of its frames on NH, but i'll test it out. if you really want to beat a 2A, i think hover or fake hover is better.
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ok so i went and tested PO 8K a bit. on CH it's safe, and nobody can reach you, but you're still at negative frames. maybe -10 or something. bah. on hit Raphael can 3B you, and on block Nightmare can 33B you, lol.
 
It's hella unsafe, but, after a lot of PO transitions, characters with fast 2A or similar moves (i tested this on Soph) can 2A and then GI low in time to pick off HO A, HO B, and Fake HO to PO B(if you do PO B asap). The 2A actually helps them to get the right timing for the GI.

But Pshhhhh! Don't tell anyone.

Exclusions were 33A (on hit) PO HO where HO B punishes the 2A, and 1BA (also on hit) PO HO where HO B could only be blocked but not GIed. Also tested with Soph's 2A. For some unknown reason, i don't know how HO A or FHO PO B work in this setting.
I'll test those too.
And i don't know how much disadvantage you need to make the GI after 2A whiff but i think it's more than AB (on block) PO.

Maybe it would be best to mix in FHO and use a PO A+B or a delayed PO B to punish the GI Whiff in that situation, but i won't give up on PO 8B (YET) especially when i am certain that TC moves will try to mess up my PO/PORC/POS. It also adds the element of surprise since few people use it.
 
FleshMasher said:
Exclusions were 33A (on hit) PO HO where HO B punishes the 2A, and 1BA (also on hit) PO HO where HO B could only be blocked but not GIed. Also tested with Soph's 2A. For some unknown reason, i don't know how HO A or FHO PO B work in this setting.
Click to expand...

The answer is simple: those moves give the most frame advantage into PO stance than her other moves that shift into PO. Those PO moves will be uninterruptable after those moves shift into PO on hit.

At the end of the day, PO stance with frame advantage is a guessing game that's slightly in your favor. Hover, Mist, and PO are good ways to deal with 2A, but regardless, you shouldn't be afraid of getting hit by 2A too much, since the damage it gives off is insignificant next to the payoff you can get from guessing correctly while in PO stance.
 
Just a question to the SA mods: Can this thread get stickied?
I mean i put a lot of work into this and even threads like "how to intentionaly get hatemail" get stickied.
 
i agree. unless we're trying to be ninjas about our frame data, i don't see any reason *not* to sticky this thread.
 
I wish I could just step down and make you guys mods FleshMasher or LKV.
Since u guys are so awesome and adorable with the Taki forums.
But the truth is Sword Lord likes to lurk and post things around here, and well...those are the kinds of posts that need to be edited/deleted.
<3 <3 <3
Just lemme know what guys need stickied and shit.
 
Really, you could test stance data both ways, incorporating the main transition or doing it by finding when a CH occurs, but ultimatley you'll end up with the same thing, just different descriptions...
Honestly, I'm thinking your way would be better because simple is better...
This is all very informing in here, I like that attitude, but I've been recording down the reach of each move for different characters along with how much the pushback affects whiffing, it helps me (at least) understand the best attack to respond with in each situation, very deep in depth stuff... It also points out the weakness of characters in a way... Keep up all the great work, not many people are interested in frame testing atm...
 
This thread has been a huge help, thanks!

I'm in a process of making a Taki video and the frame data here will help alot. Thanks fleshmasta and others!
 
Just some extra PO K tidbits (yes tidbits!!!) :
Well chances are you probably already know about this, anyway, transitions into PO where the last hit of the command connects on CH leads into a PO K that hits at a Special~Mid (SM) level... Examples include CH 4A, PO K - (If 4A hits on CH then PO K is a SM); CH AB214(2nd hit only) - (If the 2nd hit of AB connects on CH and only the 2nd hit landed, PO K is a SM)... Which brings me to CH property transfers... Well notice how CH 1BA as a combo doesn't give that STN you're looking for??? But if only the last hit of 1BA connects on CH you will get that STN... In stun combos (like 44K, 1BA214, PO B for example) the CH property of the last hit in a command gets transfered through in the combo... OK, so if you didn't know before now you know why... Bringing me back to PO K, PO K on hit gives a Shake~STN (SHK) which gives Taki +9 at the LEAST, meaning PO K, 2bA214 is a legit combo and by doing that combo a PO K followup will be a SM... But if you decide to do AB214 instead (because the opponent only has 1 frame to shake out), Taki gets a bit more damage through and a PO K followup will still be a SM... Something quick on ABK though, if only the last hit of ABK connects on CH Taki is at +5, look for this, it is useful to know... BTW, the SM PO K has all the same porperties of the original PO K (besides the fact it can't be ducked)... Something else you might notice is sometimes you might end up doing PO K twice as a combo and on the second time PO K cancels it's SHK, after testing I found Taki is at +8 on a PO K double hit so keep working her magic, even if it feels like you can't...

I redid all of Taki's Frames, Possession is actually 15 frames if you didn't know, 214~PO A is i26 at the fastest possible, which means PO A is actually i11!!! OH!, if only the last hit of PO A connects on CH (or PO A hits in a stun combo), the hit spins the opponent leaving Taki at +9 (like Fleshmasher stated previously I believe), meaning 2bA214 is garaunteed (near walls mainly due to poor reach) and a PO K followup is now (you guessed it) a SM!!! Since both PO K's are +3 on grd, just keep messin people up...
 
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