New frames, new thread!

FleshMasher

[13] Hero
Hello! I took Halisters Study and derived some kind of Taki reference out of it.
With this i tried to add some to his frame listings and this is the new frame list for now. Have fun with it!
Tell me what you think.
Some are guesses marked with ? And there is the weird case of 1A.
On block it can be punished with 4B but not with 44B although 44B is usually faster.

i9: 2bA / a+bA / 4a+bA / PO A
i10: A
i12: PO 8K(front)
i13: FC 2A / BT A / K / 22K
i14: 2A / 3K
i15: A6 / B / 1B/ 1K / WS K / FC 2K / BT K / FC 1A+B
i16: 6B / 3B / 2B / FC 2B
i17: A+G / B+G / WS A / 33A / BT 2A / BT B / 6K / 4K / 66K / PO K / BT A+B
i18: WS B / 33B / BT 2B / 2K / FC 2A+K
i19: 6A / 66A / 66B / PO B / BT 2K
i20: 44A
i21: 4A / 7_8_9A / 7_8_9B / 7_8_9K / 33K
i22: 22B / 11K
i23: 3A / K2
i24: 1A
i25: 44B
i26: 4B
i27: 44K
i29: 22_88A
i30: A+B / 4A+B
i30+: 2A+B / BT 2A+B


2A+B/BT 2A+B seem to be slower than bombs i tested this via WS K, Bomb on a BT Taki her 2A+B after she ate WS K seems to be still slower than the bomb.

I tested all BT stuff after WS K on a BT Taki which should be most accurate.



Evasion Frames from LKV and a bit from me:


7_8_9 da jump, tech jumps at the 6th frame.

7_8_9A_B_K tech jump from the 7th frame.

66A seems to jump at the 10th frame.

3B Tech Crouches frames 7 through 11.

66B Tech Crouches from frame 7 to frames 18 and 19 where it trades with the highs mostly.
Steps to your own left from frame 9 to 13.

33B Tech Crouches from frame 8.

K2 seems to jump the 11th frame.

66K Tech Jumps starting from the 7th frame.
Tech Crouches on the 4th frame to the 9th frame.

22K seems to jump from the 11th or maybe 10th frame
and it also slightly steps from the 10 to the 11th frame, but only very slightly it steps WS K and 1B but no 6B, 3K or FC 2B

33K seems to jump the last 2 frames so that it doesn't trade with lows.

A+B TC 21st frame

4A+B seems to TC at 21 Frames too or maybe fuzzy 20 frames.

Recovery frames:


Shakeable stuns

+15: 44K (i14 3K can't be blocked)
+less than 10: CH 6A (i10 A can be blocked, BT PO 8K too, 2bA whiffs. BT PO B+K can be crouched)
+less than 9: PO K (i9 2bA can be blocked)


Stun hit

+9: PO A
+4: 1K
+2: 1K

This depends on the stun in a shakable it's +4 in an unshakable it's +2. Weird.

Counter Hit
+4: ABK(the K has to CH)
+1: 1K


Hit

+11: 33_99A PO
+8: 1BA PO / BT A
+6: WS A / 22_88A / 4K / FC 2A+KK
+5: AB PO / BK / BA PO / 6B / KKK
+4: 2A / FC 2A / BT 2A / BAK / BT B / BT K / FC 1A+B / PO 8K(Back)
+3: BB PO / 3bK PO / KK
+2: WS AA PO / 33_99A / 44_11_77A / 2bA PO / 6KA PO
+1: ABK / 1A / 7A / 7_8_9B / FC 2B / K2 / PO A
=0: 6A / 33_99ABBB / BT 2B / WS K / STK K
-1: AA / AAB / 33_99AB / 33_99ABB / BB / 3B / BT BA / 2KK
-2: A / AB 4A+B~A / 4A PO / BT BA PO / 2bA / K / 6KA / 3K / 3KK / 4KK / KK2K
-3: WS AA / B / WS B
-4: AB 4A+B~A PO / 3A / 3AK / WS BB / 1K
-5: BBB / BA / 66K / RWR A
-6: AB / 1BA / 6K / 7_8_9K
-7: 22K
-8: 3bK
-9: 2K / 1B / FC 2A+K
-10:
-11:
-12:
-13:
-14:(3KK WR)
-15:
-16: PO 8K Front
-17:
-18:
-19:
-20:


22A is safe and on hit all BT moves except 2A+B are uninterruptible, 6A PO~BT PO B+K interruptable by all of takis BT moves,
22A PO~BT PO B+K is interruptable by anything, i guess it isn't even supposed to be there.
The only thing from this that is half useful is unBT PO stuff. But since it mostly leaves you in BT on hit...

I don't know how to test this stuff more frame accurate.

Block

+7: BA[K]
+6: B[K]
+3: PO K
+2: 1BA PO
+1:
=0:
-1: 33_99A PO
-2: WS A / BT A
-3: AB PO / ABK / KKK / 33_99K / BT A+B / WR K
-4: BA PO / 4K / BT K
-5: 9A / 3bK PO / BK / 6B / BT B / STK K
-6: AB 4A+B / 2A / B / 9KKK / 11_77K
-7: WS AA PO / 2bA PO / FC 2B / BT 2B PO / K2 / KK / 6KA PO / A+B / PO B / WR A
-8: AA / 33_99A / 44_11_77A / 22_88A / BB PO / 3K
-9: 7A / BAK / 3B / 7_8_9B / BT BA / BT 2B / K / 4A+B / PO A / HO A / HO B
-10: AB 4A+B~A / WS AA / 2bA / 6KA / 4KK / WS K
-11: 33_99AB / 33_99ABB / 33_99ABBB / 22_88A / BB / BT BA PO / 44B / FC A+KK
-12: AB 4A+B~A PO / 22_88B / 3KK / 2KK / PO 8K(Back)
-13: AB / BA / 1BA / WS B
-14: A6 / 3AK / 3A / 1K / KK2K
-15: 6A / WS AAA / 3bK / FC K
-16: BBB / 33_99B / 6K / RWR B / 1B
-17: AAB / 66A / 3KKK / 66K / 44K / FC 1A+B / RWR K
-18: BAA / 22_88K / 22_88KA
-19: BA6K / 66B / WS BB / (3KK WR) / 2K / BT 2K / FC A+K
-20: 4B / 9KK / 666K / RWR A / 9KK PO
-21:
1A?
-22:
-23: PO 8K Front
-24: WR B / (A6 WR)
---: WR BB / WR BK / 1A? / 2A+B


6A PO i don't know how to test this

A little inconsistency about 1BA PO on block: i used the reference data for PO B which should be i20.
With this i concluded that 1BA PO is +2 on block because 1BA PO(blocked) i20 PO B trades with i18 2K and i18 33B
But 1BA PO(blocked) i9 PO A trades with i9 2bA???
So is PO B faster than i20?

And i'm a little unsure of the 3KK WR and A6 WR stuff so i put it in ().
I just looked how fast i can block after it. Which is probably wrong :)

All credits to Halister for he posted the first frames for Taki.
If anything is wrong, blame me of course!

And if you wanna see how the frames were found out you may find the answer in the thread. Or ask for specifications.
 

OmegaXCN

[10] Knight
Very nice FleshMaster.

There's a few missing moves here that I can fill in with my tested data. I'll be sure to post them once I get back to my computer with the text file on it.
 

OmegaXCN

[10] Knight
They sure are.

Solid range to boot, as well as smaller break window with her command through, AND good moves that give free throw attempts on hit.

Throwing with Taki = very good.
 

Dullyanna

[10] Knight
So is Fleshmasher still doing this? It's clearly unfinished, so if he (And nobody else) wants to rectify that, I can start working on it.
 

OmegaXCN

[10] Knight
From my own tested data:

22_88 A: +6 on hit

2K
Hit = -9
CH = -9
BLock = -19

2kk
Hit = +1
CH = +1
Block = -12 Force Crouch

k2 (second hit)
Block = -7
Hit = +0

A+B
Block = -5

4A+B
Block = -9

7_8_9 B
Hit = +1
CH = +1
BLock = -9

33A B B B (don't think the just frames are any different on block)
Speed = i17
Hit = 0
Block= -10

33A PO
Speed - i17
Hit = +11 (hell yes)
Block = +1

ABK
Hit = +3
CH = +5
BLock = -3

AA
Speed i10
Hit = -1
CH = -1
Block = -8

AAB
Speed i10
Hit = -1
CH = -1
Block = -17

ABK
Hit = +3
CH = +5
BLock = -3

All of these are worth noting.
 

mikosu

Goderator of pink hearts
In my testing Taki's throws seem to be i18. I used Tira to test. I'll try another character now.

EDIT: Yup I'm sure of it. Asta and Zas throws trade at neutral with Tira but Taki's lose.
 

OmegaXCN

[10] Knight
In my testing Taki's throws seem to be i18. I used Tira to test. I'll try another character now.

EDIT: Yup I'm sure of it. Asta and Zas throws trade at neutral with Tira but Taki's lose.

Hmmm, this made me go back into training mode to test.

I've concluded that Taki's throws are definitely i17.

According to Tira's data, her throws are actually i17. And yes her throw does trade with Asta and Zas, whose throws is also i17.

I've confirmed they are all i17 with Taki's WS K (neutral on hit). All their throws trade with her own throws and her i17 moves (4K and 6K).

And just to make sure, I tested using Tira's moves: Her 6A (i16) beats Taki's throw at neutral, but loses with her 4A (i18) to her throw at neutral.


So were both a single frame off =P Taki's throws are i17.
 

mikosu

Goderator of pink hearts
Messed around with her WS K and throws do consistently trade. After Tira GS B on hit is where it's weird. Taki's throws were beaten most of the time but sometimes they traded. Guess it's just one of those things. i17 it is!
 

FleshMasher

[13] Hero
Inserted Omega's stuff
Thank you Omega!
But i think 33_99A PO on block is -1 because if it is blocked PO A(which should be i9) trades with A.
And a bit more of my own.
The recovery section should cover the complete move list by now, i hope. Correct me if anything is still missing.
only the iXX section still needs work.
And i'm a little unsure of the 3KK WR and A6 WR stuff so i put it in ().
I just looked how fast i can block after it. Which is probably wrong :)
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
So now i should have it all covered if anything is missing or just wrong inform me please.
If it's too messy you can sort and repost it i'm too lazy right now.
As i am too lazy to make an extra section for counters.
I also didn't cover anything that stuns or knocks down.
Would anyone be willing to do that?
I mean i know a knock down is a general advantage but how big is it really for all the moves?
Or does this go into the area of tech traps?
Frame tech traps?
It's all frames!
Dunno just thinking.
 

Halister

[09] Warrior
Please see the Taki study, there's a few pieces of data you can add from there. I did some of the PO shifts and the frames you get from each one on hit and block.

I do want people to notice that 3AK and 3A are -13 on block and so nobody can punish them severely on block (very few i13 WS moves, otherwise only FC As that are i13 will punish on block). Too bad this move sucks on hit. Not too bad of a low if playing slower and with more spacing.

WR A looks better and better the more I see it. It's only -6 to -7 on block (ie. it's safe), and it has sick range because of the WR as well as because of the step forward after the WR. It's Mid, Mid AND is horizontal. Not a bad move to throw out there to start a round to cover ground and cut off step

BT A, B and 2B are all really good frame wise. Too bad from BT B, you can't go into AB quickly because of the A cancel which has a long delay window.

4K and 4KK have really good frames (both safe)
KK, KKK, and KK2K are all good too. KKK is only -3 on block, KK is -7 and KK2K is -13 (see earlier)

2KK is safe

33ABBB is safe against everyon except Taki and being able to hold the A to delay the Bs can add some games to that

22_88 B is safe against death fist and B counters and as launchers go, not too bad. You do get the A:6 jf combo afterwards and if you delay the WR B after the JF, you can uncouple the damage for more




A few changes

AB 4A+B~A is NCC not NC (same with the PO shift)

A6 B+K and A6 2_8B+K shifts need to be added

WS K - I have it at i15

I think 2KK is NCC

A+B~A should be i9 like 2bA, you can't get it that fast to be i8, heck, it's really hard to get it to i9 because you have to press A+B, release and then hit A in the span of 1 frame (unless you map it out)

There's a very odd couple properties with BT 2A+B - see Takitech 4 and my JF combo vid. You will land after BT 2A+B such that you do BT moves as you get up. Normally you can only do single button press moves from that position, but if you do it early enough and time it right, you can do simultaneous button press moves (ie. BT A+B, or BT B+K). There is another odd property that if you JF it, you will get up immediately and to the BT move faster than you expect it to come out. You can do some odd damaging combos with that timing.

44A is high, I wish it were mid

Stalker A is mid

PO 7_8_9 K is different on CH - I think it's -9 on CH (I think I tested this in the study)
 

FleshMasher

[13] Hero
Please see the Taki study, there's a few pieces of data you can add from there. I did some of the PO shifts and the frames you get from each one on hit and block.

I do want people to notice that 3AK and 3A are -13 on block and so nobody can punish them severely on block (very few i13 WS moves, otherwise only FC As that are i13 will punish on block). Too bad this move sucks on hit. Not too bad of a low if playing slower and with more spacing.

WR A looks better and better the more I see it. It's only -6 to -7 on block (ie. it's safe), and it has sick range because of the WR as well as because of the step forward after the WR. It's Mid, Mid AND is horizontal. Not a bad move to throw out there to start a round to cover ground and cut off step

A few changes

AB 4A+B~A is NCC not NC (same with the PO shift)

A6 B+K and A6 2_8B+K shifts need to be added

I took your frames in the study as reference :)
I got 3AK and 3A as -14 on block which is almost the same but i'll test this again.
WR A is really cool.
I've got A6 WR and 3KK WR but i'm a bit unsure of how to test it. I looked how early i'm able to block after WR and don't know if that is right.
Will test WRS too. And WS BbSTK :)
 

Halister

[09] Warrior
I'm referring to the WIKI that Zombie posted

If you are having trouble testing stances, you may have to do a move against move comparison instead of when you will be able to block.
 

Halister

[09] Warrior
yeah, I'm not exactly sure how to test those either
May need to record it and play it frame by frame and just count