KingAce
HERMITISM
Nice safemare Engared. I can always appreciate giving up weak punishment damage for better positioning to gain throw/mid mixups.
Turtle on.
Turtle on.
Nightmare Web Theater.
- Thread starter SWBeta
- Start date
That is true, but define good positioning against ivy?
Besides, is it REALLY a good idea to let Ivy know she can get away with things like WP3A and SW 22_88K scot free?
I appreciate the benefits of positioning, but the simple fact is you HAVE to let ivy know her shit won't stand - eg. If you didn't punish WP3A against, say, Ring - how long do you think he'd let you build momentum from that for? (Not that ring uses WP3A much anyway :/)
No offence meant btw.
Besides, is it REALLY a good idea to let Ivy know she can get away with things like WP3A and SW 22_88K scot free?
I appreciate the benefits of positioning, but the simple fact is you HAVE to let ivy know her shit won't stand - eg. If you didn't punish WP3A against, say, Ring - how long do you think he'd let you build momentum from that for? (Not that ring uses WP3A much anyway :/)
No offence meant btw.
Engared
[10] Knight
You block WP3A, at max you get 6A (or IagA) which does around 28 damage and puts you at negative -4~-8 (not sure); or you whiff the punishment and she blocks it and you are placed at -17. Both of which are not ideal. And i did not block a single SW22K i think in that series (its impossible to see on the TV we were using anyway).
I instead ignore the punish and reposition myself in the spacing game and attempt to set Ivy up for a mid/throw/1A mixup which will put me at massive frame advantage and set Ivy up for further mixups. NM's pressure game comes from his amazing step which is something most newer NMs do not understand.
An example of this pressure game at work is seen later in the series, every time i was in throw range (which for NM is a fairly large distance), Davo would automatically duck or flinch; leaving him open to 33B or 3B or 11K mixups.
I instead ignore the punish and reposition myself in the spacing game and attempt to set Ivy up for a mid/throw/1A mixup which will put me at massive frame advantage and set Ivy up for further mixups. NM's pressure game comes from his amazing step which is something most newer NMs do not understand.
An example of this pressure game at work is seen later in the series, every time i was in throw range (which for NM is a fairly large distance), Davo would automatically duck or flinch; leaving him open to 33B or 3B or 11K mixups.
KingAce
HERMITISM
Some people just don't understand how hard it is to get close to that bitch. At the same time taking massive amounts of damage or SG damage. As long as you can grab her, and you can side step to whiff punish with a 3B that actually launches...you're good.
Engared
[10] Knight
I find NM does not really have as much trouble getting in close as other characters do. Long range B+K spacing, 33B, 66A+B, 66B+K GS A, GS B, GS mixups all help him close the distance during the momentary period where she is on negative frames. Apparently according to Keev (or information garnered from the master himself), the trick against Ivy is to actually let her crush you; ignore the flashing gauge and just go full tilt against her.
While I confess I'm not a Nightmare player, I understand how much of a bitch Ivy can be, try doing it with Siegfried ie. Good fronstep bad movement otherwise. I can assure you I get no easy ride against her either.
In my experience, Ivy's weakness is how easy it is to play linear in CL, what with 1BB+K and 33BBBBB so I was expecting a lot more in the way of whiff punishment to get damage in the first match I guess =/
Sieg and NM both have great throw games, but I don't personally think it's for mixing up with mids - I use vacuum grab range to make my opponent want to pull back to mid range as although Ivy's WP spacing is pretty heavy - I find it easier to deal with than her SW bullshit...
Different styles though =S
In my experience, Ivy's weakness is how easy it is to play linear in CL, what with 1BB+K and 33BBBBB so I was expecting a lot more in the way of whiff punishment to get damage in the first match I guess =/
Sieg and NM both have great throw games, but I don't personally think it's for mixing up with mids - I use vacuum grab range to make my opponent want to pull back to mid range as although Ivy's WP spacing is pretty heavy - I find it easier to deal with than her SW bullshit...
Different styles though =S
KingAce
HERMITISM
I agree with this. From my most recent experience against Woahhzz he basically just run away all day zoning me out. Really frustrating, I didn't play NM but I felt it would have worked out better for me.
It's frustrating sacrificing so much just to touch her. And up close she ain't no slouch either especially with 9B.
Engared
[10] Knight
Woahzz is just op lol. But i would like people who face him to have much better Ivy knowledge, people fall for the traps too easily and he plays a rather basic Ivy. But it seems to work very well and a great player mated to an OP character= game over most of the time.
Engared
[10] Knight
Why would you want your opponent to pull back into mid range (especially against Ivy)? By using throws in that way; you are basically magnifying Sieg's biggest weakness, the lack of a knockdown low outside of stance. Thus to get your opponent to flinch, you have to get really lucky or master the art of A+KA2A. Sieg's throws are arguably better than NM's as well, both of which place your opponent right at Sieg's feet, at frame disadvantage and waiting for a mixup from Sieg; so it boggles my mind as to you and other Sieg players ignore one of his greatest strengths. I mixup Sieg's throws with 66B or 6B or B4 or B6 or 3A or 4K normally.
Sieg has one of the best ground wake-up games, a ton of tech crouch mids (most are safe as well) which do great damage, great close range stance mix-ups, terrific throw game, great step kill game all of which are excellent in close. And if you have trouble dealing with SW stance, random 3B him and poke with your kicks (4K, 66KA, 3K, 1K etc) rather than with your sword (if you want to be safe). Sieg and NM both have great kick moves, NM is forced to use his, Sieg has the choice and thus under utilizes his kicks.
Engared
[10] Knight
You also see how Partisan is slowly closing the gap with Eli with his Cass. The Cass v Ivy matchup is terribly against Cass but due to his research of Ivy, the fights are getting closer and closer. Doing the same with the characters you have would greatly help in the matchup imo. In just 2009, Davo was beating me hands down and it was only after research that i now do not fear the matchup as much as i once did.
Sp1d3r
Demon Beaver
good match Engared
Siegfrieds biggest weakness is his complete lack of safety without committing to stance - at mid range vs. Ivy he can compete as he becomes unpunishable unless you take the piss and he has a series of tech crouch ranged mids to keep up pressure and good overall SG damage.
At mid range I find Sieg competes with Ivy really well. That's personal opinion though =\
Engared
[10] Knight
Complete lack of safety? Waaaat? You mean against whiff or block? Safe Sieg has at least 5-6 more moves than Safemare does. Sieg has a huge array of mid pokes, most of which are reasonably safe, have great range and have tech crouch. You do not really need to go into stance in order to use them. And the only way you can get these mid pokes to hit is to whiff punish, space properly or to make them flinch.
And if you only care about frames you shouldn't even be playing those 2 characters; they aren't safe characters full-stop. Go play a sister or Amy. Playing the big sword bastards requires you to think in a different way. They require more of a risk reward mindset.
Are you talking online btw?
No - I'm talking offline. Would I be discussing punishment if we were online?
Let me give you an example - Sieg vs X at close range: here's the mids they can punish:
WS(B), 3A, 3(B), 3K. At mid range, none at all.
He has no unreactable low which gives KND or even + on normal hit. He may have a good throw game, but many players would sooner take the gamble than duck - as it keeps his moveset restricted.
What he does have is an insane spacing game - good enough not to depend on grab/mid mixup for the most part - the threat of it is typically sufficient. All this makes him competitive at mid range, so forgive me for not charging in XD.
And I don't care about frames normally - I care about range, that coupled with knowledge of my opponent is how I define advantage.
Answer me this: Why should I risk my neck rushing in when I can do fatal damage at a distance.
I can play mid/throw mixup and I'm good at it - but I dislike doing it unless absolutely necessary, pardon me if that makes me a bad player though ^^
Let me give you an example - Sieg vs X at close range: here's the mids they can punish:
WS(B), 3A, 3(B), 3K. At mid range, none at all.
He has no unreactable low which gives KND or even + on normal hit. He may have a good throw game, but many players would sooner take the gamble than duck - as it keeps his moveset restricted.
What he does have is an insane spacing game - good enough not to depend on grab/mid mixup for the most part - the threat of it is typically sufficient. All this makes him competitive at mid range, so forgive me for not charging in XD.
And I don't care about frames normally - I care about range, that coupled with knowledge of my opponent is how I define advantage.
Answer me this: Why should I risk my neck rushing in when I can do fatal damage at a distance.
I can play mid/throw mixup and I'm good at it - but I dislike doing it unless absolutely necessary, pardon me if that makes me a bad player though ^^
Engared
[10] Knight
If you have a good throw game you opponent will start ducking in a hurry than get hit by the post block mixups. If your opponent isn't ducking everytime you walk into throw range, you are doing it wrong. And if your opponent just blocks everything and laughs at your lack of a low then you may want to reconsider your above strategy; especially against the master of spacing known as Ivy lol.
The whole concept of Sieg fighting at mid range is a strategy which i cannot comprehend; playing the mid range game with his slow step speed; stationary stance play, short range stance low/mid mixups (RSH A and SH A+B? [not sure of the connotations]), great grab range and tech crouch mids etc etc boggles my mind. Nightmare is much more suited to the mid range game due to his great movement speed, long reach and ability to take the game to a long range one or a point blank one in an instant. And Ivy is even better at this than Nightmare with WP 3A etc.
Shen Yuan used a FlapJack/ WS B strategy from in close with his Sieg which was insanely scary. So that's a variation you might like to try.
Anyway this is the NM forums, back to topic.
Engared
[10] Knight
Whoopdeedo. Want a cookie?
Maybe a pin to deflate your head :P
You inadvertently (I think) hit a nugget there - you don't have to play a set way with each character - look at the difference between Scud and Malek's styles... I realise it's Ivy, but hey!
Surely you've seen people with strategies so daft they just work? (Tademasu :P) Anyways - my point is that regardless of your characters tools - they are open to be played a number of different ways. I once played a NM that practically lived in GS for example.
Just because of a characters limitations they are not impossible to use in certain ways. As a NM you should know that. Just because you disagree with my style it is no less valid than yours - though I will play about with flapjack/WSB - sounds like fun ^_^
KingAce
HERMITISM
NM is very versatile. I have already mentioned here in this forum the various play- styles that exists with the character. However, in some match ups turtling is the best way to go.