Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread

Tiamat said:
looks like Keev was wrong about the the GS from old WS AA being removed
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Its not final Nightmare yet. He doesn't have a backturn move. Which is stupid if it remains in.

Also he does not seem to have an input for 11b yet. Which is also stupid.
 
I wonder if two GS K BEs is the limit. IIRC the NM player in the stream still had more meter to spare. Connecting four BEs to RO across the ring would be pretty broke.
 
microgamer said:
I wonder if two GS K BEs is the limit. IIRC the NM player in the stream still had more meter to spare. Connecting four BEs to RO across the ring would be pretty broke.
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I'd rather there be more tech-traps from that BE. It would be wicked sick if that was the case.
 
also, regarding the GS K BE, if you noticed by the end of the combo it's like.. 12 hits.. it seems when the opponent drops to the ground it contributes a few hits, this kinda sucks for damage scaling.
 
I think parts of it where filler. I saw things like NSS B+K and other stuff (and got excited for new moves), but the google translation said that the "system is unexplored", so i'm guessing they put certain commands like FC A+B, WR A+B, 22B+K, NSS B+K, but the input doesn't do anything.
Cupui said:
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0:48 - 33B to the BE hit uninterruptable?
0:58 - NM grabs Leixia out of 44B-- still has nice throw range
2:03 - 4KKB BE has a fourth hit in the string
Did we confirm if NM had GS [B ] > NSS yet?
 
I dunno if NM has GS (B) or not. The 33B BE looks pretty quick so should be hard to interrupt, but too early to say if it's uninterruptible

the 4K BE extra hit basically makes up for the old 2nd hit of the stab I guess. maybe its 4K A+B+K:B or something

also....that's the AI? I seriously couldn't tell, the stuff it did made more sense than most of the players I've seen so far lol (though was an overabundance of stance play). impressive
 
66B is pretty damn safe, notice he could use 6K without being punished @3:13, and then blocked a 2A @4:00 even though he whiffed.

i really hope they don't remove GS > NSS, it seems the player is trying to do it repeatly but unable.

i think NM with meter is pretty good, makes some of his moves safer and rewarding, ie: 33B BE, 4K BE.
 
Tiamat said:
I dunno if NM has GS (B) or not. The 33B BE looks pretty quick so should be hard to interrupt, but too early to say if it's uninterruptible

the 4K BE extra hit basically makes up for the old 2nd hit of the stab I guess. maybe its 4K A+B+K:B or something

also....that's the AI? I seriously couldn't tell, the stuff it did made more sense than most of the players I've seen so far lol (though was an overabundance of stance play). impressive
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I think Keev did GS B to NSS in a video. I remember seeing it but the pushback on GS B makes it much safer now (ie specific punish). Good things however 1 [B ] NSS A+B doesn't look like its interruptable by 2A anymore (frame trap inc), push back on GS B is huge. More good things to come.

Edit: Correction make that 1 [B ] ibA. You can bait whiffs with 3 [B ] as well it seems.
 
Unless you have the game in your hand, you can't really call something safe yet.
Positives.
BE33B into whatever that GS B launch input is looks uninterpretable.
1A is definitely faster.
66KGS is still in the game.(awesome for me)
3AA looks faster too.
1(B) NSS ibA trades with 2A it appears. That's fast.
4K BE K6BMASHB to get the JF extra hit it appears. It's essentially 4KK+6BBBB. A good follow up for CH GS A.
Because GS doesn't move as forward as it used to, and GS B has a bit more push back punishing GS B is inconsistent. 2A won't cut it.
I don't know if Leixia's 2A is actaully a FC, she trades with highs a couple times.

Since NM is definitely a meter based character, I am thinking Aga spam is one way to build meter. Without meter you don't have access to his ringouts and possibly wall combos. The best bait to setup for his CE I can think of is his GS.
 
Someone else pointed it out on YouTube, but 3:26 almost looks like a back throw break. I doubt they'd all of a sudden give NM the ability to break back throws, but it's an interesting thing to look at in the video. In all honesty, there's no reason to give NM back throw breaks because of his high mobility (and I don't think Astaroth needs that ability either).
 
KingAce said:
Unless you have the game in your hand, you can't really call something safe yet.
Positives.
BE33B into whatever that GS B launch input is looks uninterpretable.
1A is definitely faster.
66KGS is still in the game.(awesome for me)
3AA looks faster too.
1(B) NSS ibA trades with 2A it appears. That's fast.
4K BE K6BMASHB to get the JF extra hit it appears. It's essentially 4KK+6BBBB. A good follow up for CH GS A.
Because GS doesn't move as forward as it used to, and GS B has a bit more push back punishing GS B is inconsistent. 2A won't cut it.
I don't know if Leixia's 2A is actaully a FC, she trades with highs a couple times.

Since NM is definitely a meter based character, I am thinking Aga spam is one way to build meter. Without meter you don't have access to his ringouts and possibly wall combos. The best bait to setup for his CE I can think of is his GS.
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And how do you know that Nightmare is definitely a meter-based character then? Do you have the game in your hands?
 
Engared said:
And how do you know that Nightmare is definitely a meter-based character then? Do you have the game in your hands?
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I thought that was pretty obvious? Whether something is punishable or not are things we test on the first day for frame data...for example you said 1(b)NSS A+B appeared to be uninterruptable, yet 1(b) NSS iaB which is faster traded with leixia's 2A...obviously that makes 1(b) NSS A+B very much so interruptable it's just that Kayane didn't interrupt it on time. Same thing with WRB and 6K, unless a move is immediately challenged after a block you can't really use a video to speculate on safety.

I think NM is definitely a meter based character since most of his damage and ringout options come from BE. That's something that can be observed. Outside of BE, without meter what does he really have?
 
KingAce said:
I thought that was pretty obvious? Whether something is punishable or not are things we test on the first day for frame data...for example you said 1(b)NSS A+B appeared to be uninterruptable, yet 1(b) NSS iaB which is faster traded with leixia's 2A...obviously that makes 1(b) NSS A+B very much so interruptable it's just that Kayane didn't interrupt it on time. Same thing with WRB and 6K, unless a move is immediately challenged after a block you can't really use a video to speculate on safety.

I think NM is definitely a meter based character since most of his damage and ringout options come from BE. That's something that can be observed. Outside of BE, without meter what does he really have?
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Right now its all speculation, he might have some new combos which do not require meter or still have tons of tech traps which we do not know about so you saying hes definitely a meter based character is utter speculation. As is a lot of the speculation of his improved safety.

Do i really have to list the things he does have anyway? You're making it sound like hes complete garbage without meter.

A lot of his damage does not come from meter btw; a lot of his new damage options does come from meter and his meter tools look very effective but most is an overstatement. I think that Nightmare's meter options allow Nightmare to run his mix-up mindgames much more effectively than previously as his set-up entries are now safer and/or more tricky (for example: 33B BE looks like it is uninterruptable (logically) on block, adding to his 33B GS option arsenal). He also has a new 2A which is much faster and hits low so...

I would call him an option/mix-up based character instead (like what he was previously). But yet his whiff punishing ability has been improved significantly as well due to his faster and safer step, 3B/44B crumpling/launching on normal hit and at a longer range, faster 3AA, potentially faster/safer 1A etc. So he could be called a whiff-punish based character as well. So calling him definitely meter-based is an absolute exaggeration and its far too early to tell as you have not played the final version of the game yet.

What he looks like is a character with very many different play styles who has the tools to be creative and effective in the game. However, this is also speculation once again because we do not know how he stacks up against the rest of the cast.

(P.S. I fixed my annotation from my previous post, before you replied as well. I wrote the wrong thing previously with 1 (b))
 
Engared said:
Right now its all speculation, he might have some new combos which do not require meter or still have tons of tech traps which we do not know about so you saying hes definitely a meter based character is utter speculation. As is a lot of the speculation of his improved safety.
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Nope it's not all speculation, we speculate when we lack sufficient information. We have plenty of videos to work on...so somethings are open for analysis. He might or might not have a good tech trap game. I haven't seen it. I am only discussing things we have seen,.
Do i really have to list the things he does have anyway? You're making it sound like hes complete garbage without meter.

A lot of his damage does not come from meter btw; a lot of his new damage options does come from meter and his meter tools look very effective but most is an overstatement. I think that Nightmare's meter options allow Nightmare to run his mix-up mindgames much more effectively than previously as his set-up entries are now safer and/or more tricky (for example: 33B BE looks like it is uninterruptable (logically) on block, adding to his 33B GS option arsenal). He also has a new 2A which is much faster and hits low so...
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You say a lot of his damage doesn't come from meter, but aside from 2A you're only talking about how meter expands his mixups. And although BE33B being uninterruptable is a plus, you can still just block or JG, and possibly quick step it. I haven't seen a BE33B into GS A yet.
I would call him an option/mix-up based character instead (like what he was previously). But yet his whiff punishing ability has been improved significantly as well due to his faster and safer step, 3B/44B crumpling/launching on normal hit and at a longer range, faster 3AA, potentially faster/safer 1A etc. So he could be called a whiff-punish based character as well. So calling him definitely meter-based is an absolute exaggeration and its far too early to tell as you have not played the final version of the game yet.
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NM's step was always fast. He was always a whiff punishment character, this hasn't really changed much. I don't know what you mean by safer step. As far as mixups, his still a throw/mid based character. The biggest plus is that 1A is faster, which makes his anti step even better.

I call him a meter character because GSKK is gone. Which is a huge huge nerf. From WRB, from 3B, from 1A, from CH6K, etc. Replacing that is a slower version that requires meter to pick up the opponent for ringouts and wall carries. So for any potential tech traps or wall combos, you need meter for maximum damage. Considering that NM is a single hit explosive damage dealer.
 
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