Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread

[Engared]

Well to me, that ruins what made Nightmare unique and fun to play. That idea that he's a fairly risky/unsafe mess but if the opponent slips up, it's time for an awesome tech-trap, wall combo, RO, etc.



That's really the only use I see that move having. It'll be the NTC 3B replacement I suppose. Otherwise it just looks silly reactable, at least offline hah.

As much as I'd like to go on some Alarmist Abigail rant on how Mare isn't looking all that great, especially compared to Siegfried, I'll wait until there's more than 1 video of him in the new build. That said, his new WR K looks like utter garbage. Honestly what were they thinking on that one?

The ring-out distance is even further now. And GS K BE is a guard break so if your opponent does not duck the second, you will be on advantage on block.

Wait, has his opinion changed? A couple of pages ago he said Nightmare was looking really strong. Why did he change his tune?

Edit: Actually wrong thread. It was in the Official discussion thread just to be clear.

Nightmare is really strong. Though i think he'll end up around B, the Singaporeans are calling him S tier at the moment because of his CE and that damage he does. I think Asta, NM and Sieg do the most damage per hit without meter by a huge margin (maybe only Pyrrha can compare).

Ill post the video where I one-shot Shen Yuan after my gag order is removed.

A+B also is a really strong move now and is a much better risk/reward than before. Most high and mid pokes seem to be + on NH and + on CH now. As such your opponent will keep on attacking after getting a hit. Thus, it will be pretty simple to land A+B as it explodes off a much, much higher threshold.

6K, 66K, B+K, A+B, CE, FC 3B will make sure that Nightmare has the GTFO ability in SC5 which he lacked in SC4.

BTW FC 3B still wallsplats and i comboed 2A+B off it in a match.

Nightmare's CE seems to be best on Neutral or at minor negative. Its usage actually will be very difficult and it will be very easy to misuse it. But its damage is generally worth the meter usage. I think the community should dedicate many hours into CE set-ups. There are so many potential situations which it can be used its not even funny. I think the full damage CE can be used as punishment as well in many, many, many situations as well.

@Spider- Partisan has posted here and is known the be a Nightmare player but rarely posts here and Im not sure if he follows this thread very closely. I also have never seen Hates play Nightmare nor have I seen him post here.

So that is a very strange @ statement. That statement would have been better addressed to Tiamat, Schieder, Lau, Keev, Vlaster, DIME or one of the other regular NM players/posters.

To answer your question, Nightmare's brave edge moves are extremely strong. 2B+K BE is wicked sick, 4KK BE is NC and has a just frame which gives another hit, 33B BE seems to be his most damaging combo as I found that 33B BE 4BB is a NC combo and GS K BE is a very good situational move which gives NM his wall combos and ringouts.

 

[hteng]

too early to rank NM as S, the roster is not even complete yet, we don't know if he'll have very bad matchups or not. But im really liking how he is getting tools to compensate for his risky game.

 

[Paragon049]

Engared, how long does it take for the auto-GI on NM's CE to activate? Is it possible to use it on reaction?

 

[IdleMind]

Engared, how long does it take for the auto-GI on NM's CE to activate? Is it possible to use it on reaction?

At NEC I found that some slower strings like Asta AB (no delay) are definitely CEable on reaction, easily. It's kind of helped frame the CE as a "discouragement" style super, like anti-fireball supers in SF. It takes certain options off the table. I think that will be it's greatest strength in tournament play.

tl;dr: Once you get used to the motion, you can use it in the same place you use any other GI

 

[KingAce]

It's basically a buffed vader auto gi that costs meter. But if you used haphazardly people will be able to step it and launch you for your troubles.

Once again I will pick up NM as a secondary. He will be the easiest character for me to learn considering he hasn't changed by much.

 

[microgamer]

NM will never be top (unless he can CE after 33B6 or 1A6), but I have hope he'll be tourney viable. I was watching Dampierre vids and it seems he has a very similar CE, which I'm kinda sad about, but I guess that doesn't matter all that much.

As far as CE setups, it depends on the activation time of the CE auto-GI, but I suspect anything that leaves NM at as much as -10 can be used. As well as working against strings, I can see it working well against some stance transitions. Ultimately, it'll be based on how well you can read your opponents patterns. Even some of the top players have patterns.

 

[hteng]

NM will never be top (unless he can CE after 33B6 or 1A6), but I have hope he'll be tourney viable. I was watching Dampierre vids and it seems he has a very similar CE, which I'm kinda sad about, but I guess that doesn't matter all that much.

As far as CE setups, it depends on the activation time of the CE auto-GI, but I suspect anything that leaves NM at as much as -10 can be used. As well as working against strings, I can see it working well against some stance transitions. Ultimately, it'll be based on how well you can read your opponents patterns. Even some of the top players have patterns.

not just dampierre, xiba has a similar CE as well. so its hardly unique to NM now.

 

[Engared]

Engared, how long does it take for the auto-GI on NM's CE to activate? Is it possible to use it on reaction?

I think about 5-8 frames. Do not know though but it feels stronger on minor negative and/or neutral though. Its definitely usable on reaction.

I can confirm that on an air-hit/impact, it ground stuns.

It is actually very possible to get the powered up hit against off some stance transitions, I can easily see it.

@Kingace- its much much better than Vader's Auto-GI. This one smacks you in the face from pretty far away if you do anything but block or step to the side (or throw but that will take a ton of presence of mind to do). Duck, flinch, attack, step backwards and you could lose the round instantly.

And Keev was saying that its unblockable at close range though I cannot confirm this. If thats true then its the best CE in the game.

 

[KingAce]

The best CE in the game is Astaroth's Throw CE. I don't main NM like you guys his just a secondary, so I am also thinking about anti NM strats. So I have already thought about throwing to counter his CE setups.

His CE is nice but it's not what I am interested in currently, there somethings I am seeing in him that have more promise. Can't wait to play him.

 

[Engared]

The best CE in the game is Astaroth's Throw CE. I don't main NM like you guys his just a secondary, so I am also thinking about anti NM strats. So I have already thought about throwing to counter his CE setups.

His CE is nice but it's not what I am interested in currently, there somethings I am seeing in him that have more promise. Can't wait to play him.

If you can react in time, do it. Cause if you are late by a micro-second, you will get one shot by the fully powered critical edge.

And a lot of the time, Nightmare will not be in throw range. The CE has an extremely long range, are you willing to take that risk?

Also right now his CE set-ups seem almost limitless so that logic at this moment is flawed as there will be too many for you to successfully predict. And if you are waiting for the CE all the time, you will be vulnerable to other forms of Nightmare mindgames.

In the demo, it looked like it did over 180-210 damage fully powered.

 

[KingAce]

That's too much theory there Engared.
You wouldn't attempt a throw outside of range.
Also the CE costs meter, at most you have access to three CEs per match.
You also need that meter for his BE attacks, so that drops that CE number to maybe 1-2 per match.
Fully powered is where the CE is weakest, unless you're attempting to setup for whiff punishment. Eventually people will be stepping it and countering with their own CEs or if in range just throwing.

The CE setups aren't limitless...it's an auto gi. For example in SC4 you can predict where a Kilik player is more than likely to place an Asura. You just need to know what frame advantage he has to use it. The difference between auto gis and this CE is that you can do auto gis as many times as you want. The CE runs on meter.

 

[hteng]

finally, a new video we can discuss with, this place has been desolated for quite a while. not sure who is the NM player in the vid, might be keev since it's from NB EU's channel.

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CE air hit ground stun to B+G/A+G pick to back throw? not sure if this is guaranteed. @2:50

 

[Goofy]

CE air hit ground stun to B+G/A+G pick to back throw? not sure if this is guaranteed. @2:50

Ugh, another Ezio build vid. I just want new build footage already, he looks awful in the Ezio build so there's not much to talk about there. His flapjack on grounded to free back grab looks pretty darn guaranteed though, not bad.

 

[Tiamat]

I doubt flapjack gives you a back grab. They took it away with the SC4 patch so I don't see why they would bring it back now. The guy probably just didn't press anything.

 

[Goofy]

I doubt flapjack gives you a back grab. They took it away with the SC4 patch so I don't see why they would bring it back now. The guy probably just didn't press anything.

Maybe they came to their senses? :D

They've taken away plenty so we should atleast get that back haha

 

[page]

50/50 after would be good enough. Especially if NM still has meter.

 

[microgamer]

It looked like Natsu was doing something between recovering from the pickup and getting thrown, so there should be plenty time to duck. Also note that Natsu side-rolled after the CE airhit.

 

[hteng]

It looked like Natsu was doing something between recovering from the pickup and getting thrown, so there should be plenty time to duck. Also note that Natsu side-rolled after the CE airhit.

indeed, i notice she was turning to NM's direction but somehow the grab still registered as a backthrow. Also, can you tech from a ground stun?

 

[Tiamat]

indeed, i notice she was turning to NM's direction but somehow the grab still registered as a backthrow. Also, can you tech from a ground stun?

well in SC4 44BB had a groundstun but you could tech from it (leading to the NSS A trap)

 

[Engared]

Ugh, another Ezio build vid. I just want new build footage already, he looks awful in the Ezio build so there's not much to talk about there. His flapjack on grounded to free back grab looks pretty darn guaranteed though, not bad.

Erm how was he terrible in the Ezio build? Even Keev disagrees with this...

It looked like Natsu was doing something between recovering from the pickup and getting thrown, so there should be plenty time to duck. Also note that Natsu side-rolled after the CE airhit.

I think you are going to have to look for the "stun" pop-up upon CE activation to differentiate between the two.