Patroklos Pre-Release Discussion

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Hm, can't say I liked the footage of Patroklos in these recent vids. Way too limited on the movepool there so we didn't see anything we didn't already see. Still, it is nice. However, I should point out there's a much better video out there with Pyrrha and great use of BEs with the same generous usage of them, but much smarter execution. I would suggest checking it out if you want to see good meter usage.
 
So aside from the toga CAS part (I wonder if there's a female option for Pyrrha then?) I noticed something in new videos Ring posted.

It appears that Patroklos has another low kick from 8WR. Seems to trip the target on counter hit, plus it TCs and recovers crouching. I'm also curious if Pat's Angel Step has RC properties. Would be nice to mix up Angel Step options with WS options like Pat's WS KA, for example.

It seems like Pat will have one more BE option. Although there's no evidence of this, outside of existing footage from other characters that show off as many as four Brave Edges for some characters (based on what we know), so it seems likely that Pat and every character may have at least 4 BEs.
 
Windstar said:
So aside from the toga CAS part (I wonder if there's a female option for Pyrrha then?) I noticed something in new videos Ring posted.

It appears that Patroklos has another low kick from 8WR. Seems to trip the target on counter hit, plus it TCs and recovers crouching. I'm also curious if Pat's Angel Step has RC properties. Would be nice to mix up Angel Step options with WS options like Pat's WS KA, for example.

It seems like Pat will have one more BE option. Although there's no evidence of this, outside of existing footage from other characters that show off as many as four Brave Edges for some characters (based on what we know), so it seems likely that Pat and every character may have at least 4 BEs.
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i believe asta has 6 BE's
 
Windstar said:
It appears that Patroklos has another low kick from 8WR. Seems to trip the target on counter hit, plus it TCs and recovers crouching.

It seems like Pat will have one more BE option. Although there's no evidence of this, outside of existing footage from other characters that show off as many as four Brave Edges for some characters (based on what we know), so it seems likely that Pat and every character may have at least 4 BEs.
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That's 11K, which might even be better than 1K if it proves to be unseeable. Still can't beat 1K's range though, it's his fastest move at that range, his other moves that reach that far are probably in the i22+ range or SCV's equivalent.

Pat has a brave edge from the toe stab that I haven't seen since the early demos, where the only difference I saw was that extra damage is done when Pat pulls out. Other than that we have 236B, dashing shield slam, and late-TCing-shield-punch that lead into a BE followup.
 
I'm all over that... But I don't know if they will be able to supply a movelist. I heard the french players only got a limited movelist.

Also holy shit how do you know so much about his frames?
 
BrewtusBibulus said:
Also holy shit how do you know so much about his frames?
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I don't really, I'm just guessing. I'm almost certain his 1K is +1 on hit because of a video where they were clearly testing it and french players said that 11K was advantage. The thing about his moves beyond a certain range being slow is based off what move's I've seen so far... beyond his long 1K range, his speed drops off significantly.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the lows in the game gave advantage again... Well 90% of the moves in general. Before SC4 the rule of thumb was if it hit you, you are at disadvantage. SC4 made 90% of everything - on hit instead of the other way around
 
BrewtusBibulus said:
...It only takes 1 move people haven't seen yet to change all that jazz
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One move that's only a little bit slower and longer range than 1K? I doubt he has one. Right now there's pretty well defined line where the range of his moves end, seems to be a pattern. He's just a short range character. It's true that one move could change things, though, but let me explain all this jazz as you call it.

The way I see his move list, there are three distinct spacings which must be played differently. The first is up to his AA, 6B, 2A, and throw range, where he has access to fast, safe step killers, his fast mid 6B, and his throws. Beyond that range, up to his 1K range, he has his mid horizontals, B, 236B, and some other tools whose ranges all seem to end in about the same place. After that he has some really slow moves... basically, you can react to any movement and block anything he throws at you outside of that 1K range, based on what we've seen so far.

There's sorta also a important distance in between the first two where BB won't whiff after the first hit, and he has access to 66B and the toe stab.

In general, key spacings or zones to consider are places where reliable step-killing moves are in range, where mid-low mixups are in range, and where fast enough attacks to hit people before they react are in range. Patroklos's step-killing and mixup seems to have an above average range but that third area is very short. Also, the line between his reactable moves and his nonreactable moves is especially distinct, kinda like SCIV Yoshimitsu.

In my opinion, this aspect of a character the most important thing to consider when learning how to use or fight the character. All matchup knowledge should come from this, it tells you where to stand for best r/r and what options are available outside of situations where players are attacking immediately out of hit/stun/recovery (frame data is what tells you everything in those situations).

So yeah, right now I'm just speculating on his effective spacings, it's gotta be the most comprehensive way of conceiving the implications of each character's toolbox... I like to think it's important to talk about :)
 
BrewtusBibulus said:
I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the lows in the game gave advantage again... Well 90% of the moves in general. Before SC4 the rule of thumb was if it hit you, you are at disadvantage. SC4 made 90% of everything - on hit instead of the other way around
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I'd hate to disappoint you but I can already tell that isn't the case... well I'm certain that Pyrrha's 1K doesn't give advantage, neither does Pat and Leixia's 2K or NM 2A. We might see a slight increase in good lows, though. Ezio looked like he might have some good ones.
 
You do realize that most is not all... Right? A rule of thumb is that because it's the normal. There are going to be exceptions. 90% still means that 10% are different. So if I said 90% of moves in SC4 are disadvantage on hit are you going to be that guy who says 11% of moves give advantage, aren't you.

Also the zoning stuff is all well and good, but that is all matchup dependant. So how much actual fighter experience are you bringing to all this theory fighter? Make sure that when you finally sit down you make theories to suit facts instead of warping facts to suit theories.
 
BrewtusBibulus said:
You do realize that most is not all... Right? A rule of thumb is that because it's the normal. There are going to be exceptions. 90% still means that 10% are different. So if I said 90% of moves in SC4 are disadvantage on hit are you going to be that guy who says 11% of moves give advantage, aren't you.
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You sounded hopeful that we'd have SC2-like frames for lows, I was just clarifying that from what's been shown that's not true.
Also the zoning stuff is all well and good, but that is all matchup dependant. So how much actual fighter experience are you bringing to all this theory fighter? Make sure that when you finally sit down you make theories to suit facts instead of warping facts to suit theories.
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Of course it's matchup dependent, that "zoning stuff" is a way of determining how and where to space in different matchups when you consider both characters' offensive zones.

Experience? I mostly play online, but I have played offline with SoCal community before and after its decline. I'm like a notch below NFK's skill level, and I can at the very least take games off of the best on the west coast. I placed 3rd in my pool at DEV (4 pools total, two made it out into the top 8).

I can agree with your last sentiment but I'm pretty sure I'm just looking at ranges of moves in a move list and looking at zones where they control space, not unlike what some have done with 2D fighters (though this is much more complex).
 
I think I'm just going to stop posting here after this. The reason I think all this theory fighter is bad is simple. You can figure it out after about a day of actually playing the character. Hell it probably shouldn't take that long. But what you want to avoid is getting attached to ideas of how things work.

When you assign moves purpose it makes you focus more on the purpose then the move properties themselves. So you're just going to blind yourself to other applications of said move and/or not be open to using other tools to serve that purpose. You are going to see other moves and try to fit them into a different purpose instead of just seeing what things can do first. Like I said theories to suit facts, so when the facts aren't available you should avoid conclusions.

Also there were a number of lows in SC2 that gave disadvantage on hit... Asta/Nightmare 2A were both negative on CH. Once again a rule of thumb is not the basis of all things, it's just to get an idea of how things work. Every rule you can ever conceive of in a fighting game has exceptions, unless it's take free damage that will end a round.

Also I wasn't trying to call you out on fighter experience in general... Just shine a light on you haven't touched the game yet and you're making a lot of assumptions based on assumptions based on a few moments of footage in a beta.
 
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