Completely this - this is why I've kept very careful about going in the SCV SA for Sieg yet - I want to learn from personal experience, not what I've seen in development or other frankly unimformed opinions - I put this down to why I can't play Sophitia properly to this day, because I only try to work in what I've been told to or things I thought would work well in theory. =/
Patroklos Pre-Release Discussion
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Signia
[13] Hero
If one "assigns moves purpose" based on something other than the move properties, they're doing it wrong. Who was even saying that moves have a strict purpose and they can't be used any other way? I sure wasn't. I understand fine that moves may have many uses... and I was only ever talking about the move properties (which can see in the videos, I don't need training mode to take note of ranges and where the character is effective).
"Theory fighting" is only detrimental when it's incorrect theory or if it doesn't change when new information is revealed. I don't understand people's aversion to "theory fighting" anyway, it doesn't seem to be anything more than talking about what works and what doesn't work in the game. If a theory doesn't describe reality or doesn't produce the predicted results, it's just a bad theory, it doesn't mean theorizing is bad. I wonder what people thought of the first players to keep track of hitstun, blockstun, and recovery, measuring their length in frames....
Sure, I could figure this stuff out after release, I just want to talk about the character now. I don't think I could develop my strategy with the character in just one day. Not even Keysona appears to be comfortable with Pat's tools in the demo videos.
Without full movelists, frame data and any specific matchup knowledge? Impossible!
Signia
[13] Hero
general categorization of move recovery/blockstun into safe, unsafe, or advantage on block/hit of some moves is certainly possible without knowing the whole move list. So is matchup knowledge... though incomplete, it's better than nothing.
These guys that don't pay attention to older demo videos and get a chance to play the demo end up making the game look bad when they have no idea what they're doing. I hope the players going to NEC will at least learn some of the new inputs and stop trying old combos like NM 33B6, BT B+K that don't work anymore. Players in the first few demos might not have a chance to think about how to play before they tried the demo, but NEC players have no excuses. I'd know exactly what I'm doing the first time I play because I'm prepared, and I'd only have to get used to the new movement system and game speed and learn like 3 inputs for moves I want to do that I don't know yet.
Posters on virtuafighter.com that played VF5:FS location tests were much more willing to post move lists and their analysis than people on 8WR, and those that didn't live in Japan were much more curious about the changes even though they knew they wouldn't be playing the game for a long time. I'm really having trouble understanding people's stigma toward this here on 8WR.
Signia - please.
Its way too early to start having theory calibur discussions.
Even the best players in the world don't know what they're doing PROPERLY on SCV yet, so I really don't think there are grounds to go into focused discussions until everyone is on the same starting level with the same version, k?
Its way too early to start having theory calibur discussions.
Even the best players in the world don't know what they're doing PROPERLY on SCV yet, so I really don't think there are grounds to go into focused discussions until everyone is on the same starting level with the same version, k?
... Perfectly liable to change on the whims of the developers.
Signia
[13] Hero
eh.. I'm just talking about what I see right now. And I don't see what I'm saying as much different than saying "Nightmare's agA is shorter! he must be a shorter range character now."
could you stop calling what I'm saying "theory fighter" and address what I said specifically and tell me why its wrong instead of calling it theory fighter and declaring all theory fighter to be bad
Be fair Sig, how often do you not talk theory fighter? =P
No.
No.
No.
We still have major-assed changes to go through, + patches so no, I don't think making any kind of assumptions around move properties is a good idea YET.
Ah, I see. Tell me, have you played this yet? Is this the final version? Will we be working with a final version for a while?
No.
No.
No.
We still have major-assed changes to go through, + patches so no, I don't think making any kind of assumptions around move properties is a good idea YET.
Signia
[13] Hero
FINE
This thread is now about how hot Patroklos looks in a toga
This thread is now about how hot Patroklos looks in a toga
Fatal_Exodus
[14] Master
or how hot he looks without one
Violent Vodka
Pick Your Poison
Fatal wins.
Windstar
[13] Hero
Generally, you can pick up a lot of stuff just playing the game. Granted, not everyone is good at this, but knowledge and fighting mechanics come from more than just reading a bunch of text on the internet.
That said, it is too early to be discussing too much into what Patroklos can do. Instead, I just look at his moves and see stuff that looks pretty interesting and what kind of stuff he could do. Although, even then it might be too early. Lots of stuff can change and even currently known combos that we see today could be gone by the time the final version of the game hits.
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
So what happens if you end up being wrong? You have to spend day 1 unlearning the way you expected the game to be instead of learning how to play the game.
Have I mentioned the relation between expectations and people quitting early on? Because typically the higher and more defined your expectations are the more likely you are to dub the game trash and ragequit over nonsense
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
Sure. When I mentioned "zoning stuff" I was referring to how I view character zoning. You have moves that serve different purposes you must acknowledge. Step killers, interrupts, CH combo starters, NH tools, spacing tools, setup moves, mixup tools, grabs and all sorte of other tools of all hit levels... Many tools will be able to serve multiple purposes as well. Any given category could be defined in 2 or more different zonings depending on the character and their specific toolset.
Also that in and of itself isn't such a useful thing to know by itself, outside of for your character. When you start to hit useful territory is when you can analyze the interactions these have with your tools. Then you can start to see what tools drive the matchup and see where you and your opponents strengths lie. After you establish those things you can start to see what zones favor you and your opponent. The implications of being in all of them and thus adjust your strategy accordingly.
Tell me when you know how to fill in all those blanks in a meaningful fashion without playing the game for a few weeks. Then we can talk about zoning.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
Theory Fighter: You're not allowed to post Theory Fighter until we meet again. Theory Fighter.
Signia
[13] Hero
fine I'll keep it to myself SEE HOW U LIKE THAT
nah but seriously the first thing I'm telling new players in my area about is how spacing and zones work in this game. After I tell them where the guard button is, of course
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
The instruction manual might actually be good enough to start. Just learning that I could jump lows, crouch highs, and step verticals did wonders. Then learning about attack advantage and disadvantage is the next step. But yeah guarding should be on number one.
Signia
[13] Hero
that's where I learned you could shake stuns. I hardly believed it when I read it
0VincentRayne0
Faith
dang you guys are lucky. i had to have someone online tell me about that stuff before i learned how to do it. now i'm still working on not accidentally jumping when i shake a stun online.
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
Signia: I hope the people near you already understand the basics... of calculus. They aren't ready for the nash equilibrium that tells you how to choose moves
Signia
[13] Hero
My first post in the latest Hates thread should have told you I wouldn't follow the nash equilibrium strategy even if it were possible to implement. The highest winning percentage can't be achieved with something like that -- all it does is universally minimize your losses (of health). It puts a ceiling on your maximum though. If you decided to grab over and over, I could do better than the NE by countering grabs. In other words, playing to hard counter your opponent's mix instead playing a catch-all strategy can improve your risk/reward and decrease your chances of losing to "random" chance.
Obviously I won't teach them that, and yes, the people I'll be teaching will already understand the basic mechanics. The thing about the guard button was sarcastic way of saying I'll teach them the importance of blocking so they don't get their ass kicked or see the game as a mashy fighting game.
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