- Moderator
- #401
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
LOL @ that video... Why did those people have a tournament? Let's see who can mash it out the best guyz!
Patroklos Pre-Release Discussion
- Thread starter lobo
- Start date
- Status
Signia
[13] Hero
Some players (like me!) will purposely not adapt in expectation that their opponent will. While this itself could considered adapting to their adaptation, you model looks like it is just a way of categorizing assesses the player's skill, where mine has a different purpose, to look at a chosen behavior or "philosophy" (counteracter: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it") of an opponent and to decide how to counter it.
What you wrote up there looks exactly the same as this "poker levels" theory I read somewhere, actually.
- Moderator
- #403
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
The old mixup that doesn't really exist is a wonderful thing. That is one of those high level mixups you shouldn't use until you know people are adapting. Even in your model the payoff isn't going to be there until level 3.
Only when the player is going to adapt with frequency does that really work as intended. At level 3 it's a common tactic when you lose sight of how someone is guessing to just freeze your options one way or another until they guess wrong and use that establish a new mixup frequency for them to adapt to.
Also in the event players throw out a red herring and not adapting while you evaluate them, how much are you really going to lose? You actually typically gain from the scenario. You get ahead in the immediate sense of the word for smashing them in the face. Then if your opponent takes a line to exploit that immediately to negate the advantage given away, you can instantly realize they are a level 3 opponent and act accordingly.
Only when the player is going to adapt with frequency does that really work as intended. At level 3 it's a common tactic when you lose sight of how someone is guessing to just freeze your options one way or another until they guess wrong and use that establish a new mixup frequency for them to adapt to.
Also in the event players throw out a red herring and not adapting while you evaluate them, how much are you really going to lose? You actually typically gain from the scenario. You get ahead in the immediate sense of the word for smashing them in the face. Then if your opponent takes a line to exploit that immediately to negate the advantage given away, you can instantly realize they are a level 3 opponent and act accordingly.
xragnarok645x
[10] Knight
You gotta love the Alexandra family tradition. x)
Windstar
[13] Hero
Windstar
[13] Hero
Looks like Patroklos might be joining Siegfried's mercenary group, and even travel with ZWEI.
0VincentRayne0
Faith
HA! i knew that sword was too small to be siegfried's weapon. still looking forward to playing this game more and more every time i hear about it.
jak-d-ripr
[09] Warrior
I respect how they try to improve the story mode with each iteration, they haven't succeeded at making a half decent story mode yet imo, but I appreciate the effort and hopefully they hit the nail on the head this year.
hoshinocomet
[14] Master
MOM HELP ME
...Is gonna be a true classic.
...Is gonna be a true classic.
Dab_Of_Oppo
Gentlemen of the Road
Hah! It may actually work out. I mean, someone made six movies out of essentially 'daddy issues' and that was passable.
And not revealing a persons own weight, it's a Greek thing I'm pretty sure.
- S. Athas
Dab_Of_Oppo
Gentlemen of the Road
This screen makes me excited for the game! Weapon Master mode is back, or is that just a legitimate single-player!?
Also, disregarding whatever the words may say, this is (unintentionally) hilarious!
Also, disregarding whatever the words may say, this is (unintentionally) hilarious!
- Moderator
- #412
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
Subtitle should read: Damn that is a fat ass
Dab_Of_Oppo
Gentlemen of the Road
We could have a whole 2-month pre-release game trying to guess what he's looking at.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
Signia
[13] Hero
Good stuff NEC, Bibulus. I had a feeling the infinite stage would be a problem in that matchup. I have to agree with you about the infinite stage, it doesn't belong in the SC series, since it makes all positioning not matter. I'd be content if it just had invisible walls where you can't ringout or do wall combos. Aethetically, a steep slope would work just fine I think.
Infinite in one axis would be fine too, like if a stage was a long corridor. Anything but infinite space though, it makes positioning not matter. Characters like Raphael can run away forever and never get cornered.
Anything Patroklos-related to report?
Infinite in one axis would be fine too, like if a stage was a long corridor. Anything but infinite space though, it makes positioning not matter. Characters like Raphael can run away forever and never get cornered.
Anything Patroklos-related to report?
- Moderator
- #416
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
I want to open this with talking about the state of the game as I see it. Some of these things may be inaccurate, this was a beta from 2 months ago and there has been much movement in the character development front since then. Some things I say may not match up to videos that are currently out because much of my information comes from talking with Yoshi and Daishi and they are talking about things going forward in the newer versions of the beta/release. It’s also possible I got some stuff wrong, this is all from memory.
Let’s start with 66A I feel like this is going to show a lot of people the direction of the general design. This is a tracking midrange mid, with a brave edge followup. On block it’s unsafe and the BE is advantage. On hit it has advantage and the BE gives a combo. On CH I think it’s a knockdown you can’t combo off of (maybe tech trap) and BE is the same NH and CH. The BE is also launch punishable to just guard as well as being susceptible to GI’s of all kinds.
What this gives you is an interesting metagame surrounding this move. If you want to punish the move you have to throw out the punisher immediately, but if they BE you get CH into a combo. When you consider this is advantage on block it seems like it’s some wonder move and at a low level this will give patroklos players a great tool to use meter in order to get in range to do some damage. At the same time there is much depth seen in the high level applications of counters.
At a high level GI, autoGI and just guard (maybe even sidestep) will destroy you for randomly throwing it out, also throwing it out without some meter banked will be a free punish. The really interesting dynamic emerges when you consider that waiting around to punish what you can see on reaction leaves you not taking your advantage on block and creates this weird reaction time based situation where I have no idea how it will play out.
6BBB – This is MHM, first 2 hits NC 3rd combos on CH of any hit. If the last hit connects on any hit you get 66B+K into the ender of choice. On block the last hit is unsafe. The first attack also has very short range.
The first hit doesn’t stand people up on any hit, so if you hit someone crouching you whiff the 2nd hit and are open to free damage. Personally I think this move is dogshit, you can’t seem to hit confirm the combo so going for the damage involved putting your ass on the line to anyone who wants to duck out of the string high. Also even if you CH confirm you have to know
1B – This is a close range mid that looks like it TC’s , it has a BE that gives a 2 hit string which will combo if the 1B hits in a combo (in later builds). On block it’s advantage, on hit it gives a knockdown and combo (back hit grounds the opponent so it doesn’t always give a combo… maybe with BE?). I didn’t really tool around with the BE, I just know it works in combos in a later build from yoshi.
Anyone who was looking forward to 6B pressure is going to love this move. It’s advantage on block and gives him a great way to pressure once he makes his way inside. There is a good amount of push on block so you have to really keep at someone.
236B is a fast mid with a BE for a 2nd hit. On block the normal is unsafe and the BE seems safe to an unknown degree. On hit you get a knockdown that pushes back the BE does similar even against airborne opponents, after you can followup with 236K if a wall/edge helps to shorten the distance you push it away.
236A,B is a TC tracking mid… at least it looks like one. I didn’t use it for the crouching in the right place when I did use it.
236K is the biggest surprise of his whole movelist. If you hit in the air it leaves them right at your feet with you at advantage. I didn’t use it otherwise because it’s unsafe on block.
3B is maybe unsafe on block… hit gives combo of choice similar to 66B+K.
2B is a simple ground hitting mid.
4B is a high with some range, but I don’t see what it’s supposed to be good for just yet.
44B is similar to sophie 44B+K in it’s uses as far as I can see… Thinking back I want to find out it’s block properties and see if it’s got a BE.
3A is a TC mid with good range that’s not very fast. Advantage on hit and good tracking. Doesn’t seem to be unsafe.
2A is generic
1A is a slow low that does not hit grounded
6A I can’t remember what this does
44A is a tracking high that gives CE on all CH.
4A tracking move I didn’t really use
22A,A high, high series that knocks down and hits fairly quickly.
22B is a high with decent range that gives a CH combo and I don’t remember the NH property off the top of my head. On block forces crouch and gives small disadvantage.
33B is a TC launcher with a somewhat slow speed. I would guess unsafe, combos seem to be similar as after 66B+K
11B I don’t remember ever testing… it might be the same as 44B
A,A and B,B are both lacking range and if you tip hit them the followup will whiff. The moves as single pokes have good frames on hit so you can still use B and A at their tip range and mount offense on hit.
K is what you would expect from standing K, fast with good frames on hit and small/medium disadvantage on block.
66K is a tracking mid with decent range and speed. Knockdown in any hit and seems safe on block.
3K,K is a mid/high, combos on hit, unknown properties vs crouching. This is delayable, but I don’t know to what ends, especially considering it’s a string high and those are typically death at high level.
2K seems to be small disadvantage on hit, nothing you can’t work with though.
1K is great but I don’t quite see how to frame trap people towards it’s tip range… Maybe 236B or some kick I’m not using.
Besides those I have to say I didn’t tool around with his other kicks so much. Sorry.
WS A seems to be a fast tracking mid
WS B is a fast mid
WS K Tiger knee! Unsafe but gives combos on all hits. This seems like his goto punisher after ducking out of a high.
A+B is a mid autoGI into a high attack (That is an assumption, but it looks high)… I didn’t really tool around with the combo options on hit. You can charge it to extend the aGI window. This seems safe on block, but predictable highs will get you murdered so it’s still unsafe
2A+B is a low that knocks down on NH, gives a CH stun which leads to 66B+K. Also has an extra hit vs grounded that seems to give a free 236K as well as a few other enders.
Besides that I didn’t really find uses for his A+B/B+K moves after testing them initially so I didn’t use those much either. I do have to say his spinny sword and shield attacks with A+B, are probably going to be useful in combos for knockdowns you can’t get 66B+K guaranteed. Also I don’t think I tested any B+K attacks at all, so I might have missed some things.
His movement is really good everywhere with one exception, his backstep is total ass. Sidestep without quick step was so good I didn’t really use quick step until I was at some kind of big disadvantage and never lacked movement
Let’s start with 66A I feel like this is going to show a lot of people the direction of the general design. This is a tracking midrange mid, with a brave edge followup. On block it’s unsafe and the BE is advantage. On hit it has advantage and the BE gives a combo. On CH I think it’s a knockdown you can’t combo off of (maybe tech trap) and BE is the same NH and CH. The BE is also launch punishable to just guard as well as being susceptible to GI’s of all kinds.
What this gives you is an interesting metagame surrounding this move. If you want to punish the move you have to throw out the punisher immediately, but if they BE you get CH into a combo. When you consider this is advantage on block it seems like it’s some wonder move and at a low level this will give patroklos players a great tool to use meter in order to get in range to do some damage. At the same time there is much depth seen in the high level applications of counters.
At a high level GI, autoGI and just guard (maybe even sidestep) will destroy you for randomly throwing it out, also throwing it out without some meter banked will be a free punish. The really interesting dynamic emerges when you consider that waiting around to punish what you can see on reaction leaves you not taking your advantage on block and creates this weird reaction time based situation where I have no idea how it will play out.
6BBB – This is MHM, first 2 hits NC 3rd combos on CH of any hit. If the last hit connects on any hit you get 66B+K into the ender of choice. On block the last hit is unsafe. The first attack also has very short range.
The first hit doesn’t stand people up on any hit, so if you hit someone crouching you whiff the 2nd hit and are open to free damage. Personally I think this move is dogshit, you can’t seem to hit confirm the combo so going for the damage involved putting your ass on the line to anyone who wants to duck out of the string high. Also even if you CH confirm you have to know
1B – This is a close range mid that looks like it TC’s , it has a BE that gives a 2 hit string which will combo if the 1B hits in a combo (in later builds). On block it’s advantage, on hit it gives a knockdown and combo (back hit grounds the opponent so it doesn’t always give a combo… maybe with BE?). I didn’t really tool around with the BE, I just know it works in combos in a later build from yoshi.
Anyone who was looking forward to 6B pressure is going to love this move. It’s advantage on block and gives him a great way to pressure once he makes his way inside. There is a good amount of push on block so you have to really keep at someone.
236B is a fast mid with a BE for a 2nd hit. On block the normal is unsafe and the BE seems safe to an unknown degree. On hit you get a knockdown that pushes back the BE does similar even against airborne opponents, after you can followup with 236K if a wall/edge helps to shorten the distance you push it away.
236A,B is a TC tracking mid… at least it looks like one. I didn’t use it for the crouching in the right place when I did use it.
236K is the biggest surprise of his whole movelist. If you hit in the air it leaves them right at your feet with you at advantage. I didn’t use it otherwise because it’s unsafe on block.
3B is maybe unsafe on block… hit gives combo of choice similar to 66B+K.
2B is a simple ground hitting mid.
4B is a high with some range, but I don’t see what it’s supposed to be good for just yet.
44B is similar to sophie 44B+K in it’s uses as far as I can see… Thinking back I want to find out it’s block properties and see if it’s got a BE.
3A is a TC mid with good range that’s not very fast. Advantage on hit and good tracking. Doesn’t seem to be unsafe.
2A is generic
1A is a slow low that does not hit grounded
6A I can’t remember what this does
44A is a tracking high that gives CE on all CH.
4A tracking move I didn’t really use
22A,A high, high series that knocks down and hits fairly quickly.
22B is a high with decent range that gives a CH combo and I don’t remember the NH property off the top of my head. On block forces crouch and gives small disadvantage.
33B is a TC launcher with a somewhat slow speed. I would guess unsafe, combos seem to be similar as after 66B+K
11B I don’t remember ever testing… it might be the same as 44B
A,A and B,B are both lacking range and if you tip hit them the followup will whiff. The moves as single pokes have good frames on hit so you can still use B and A at their tip range and mount offense on hit.
K is what you would expect from standing K, fast with good frames on hit and small/medium disadvantage on block.
66K is a tracking mid with decent range and speed. Knockdown in any hit and seems safe on block.
3K,K is a mid/high, combos on hit, unknown properties vs crouching. This is delayable, but I don’t know to what ends, especially considering it’s a string high and those are typically death at high level.
2K seems to be small disadvantage on hit, nothing you can’t work with though.
1K is great but I don’t quite see how to frame trap people towards it’s tip range… Maybe 236B or some kick I’m not using.
Besides those I have to say I didn’t tool around with his other kicks so much. Sorry.
WS A seems to be a fast tracking mid
WS B is a fast mid
WS K Tiger knee! Unsafe but gives combos on all hits. This seems like his goto punisher after ducking out of a high.
A+B is a mid autoGI into a high attack (That is an assumption, but it looks high)… I didn’t really tool around with the combo options on hit. You can charge it to extend the aGI window. This seems safe on block, but predictable highs will get you murdered so it’s still unsafe
2A+B is a low that knocks down on NH, gives a CH stun which leads to 66B+K. Also has an extra hit vs grounded that seems to give a free 236K as well as a few other enders.
Besides that I didn’t really find uses for his A+B/B+K moves after testing them initially so I didn’t use those much either. I do have to say his spinny sword and shield attacks with A+B, are probably going to be useful in combos for knockdowns you can’t get 66B+K guaranteed. Also I don’t think I tested any B+K attacks at all, so I might have missed some things.
His movement is really good everywhere with one exception, his backstep is total ass. Sidestep without quick step was so good I didn’t really use quick step until I was at some kind of big disadvantage and never lacked movement
- Moderator
- #417
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
This guy turns out to be a close range brawler. He can get in there and sustain offense. There is a surprising lack of midrange tools and no real long range attacks beyond the range of 66B. Also I don't quite get how to frame trap outside 2A range, inside there he has a plethora of useful moves for pressure. 1B is especially awesome.
His midrange horizontal attacks are too slow to frame trap, but have great tracking and range. These are also not that bad on block and allow him to start his pressure game on hits. Also his mixup game is going to be highly throw reliant, hit lows are good and allow him to sustain offense, but you are going to need to hurt people that like to block high all day and you can't seem to do this without throws.
The only shortcoming I saw was hit inability to frame trap hard outside point blank range. Like around 1K tip hit range I think I could probably 236B frame trap, but I don't imagine that would stop someone that's backstepping. Stopping backstep outside B range is another thing that may be an issue, I want to tool around with his kicks more to see how they will compliment his short range A/B attacks.
His basic approach seems to be geared around 66B and horizontals like 66A/3A. These while not fast enough for conventional frame traps are great at closing the gap even on block, granted on block your opponent will get initiative to try and push you back... but you force the ball in their court and if you get them to whiff you're in range for your best NH damage options.
66B seems to be his lone midrange damager for no meter, it's great everywhere except speed as you can't really control backstep with this move. It seems to just be for big whiffs and CH damage against smarter opponents.
That leads straight into what I feel is going to be his biggest shortcoming, how do you stop people from backstepping all day? I don't see a tool that hits people for backstepping out of his strong ranges. Something like Cassandre 6B where you just get some poke damage and improve spacing.
His midrange horizontal attacks are too slow to frame trap, but have great tracking and range. These are also not that bad on block and allow him to start his pressure game on hits. Also his mixup game is going to be highly throw reliant, hit lows are good and allow him to sustain offense, but you are going to need to hurt people that like to block high all day and you can't seem to do this without throws.
The only shortcoming I saw was hit inability to frame trap hard outside point blank range. Like around 1K tip hit range I think I could probably 236B frame trap, but I don't imagine that would stop someone that's backstepping. Stopping backstep outside B range is another thing that may be an issue, I want to tool around with his kicks more to see how they will compliment his short range A/B attacks.
His basic approach seems to be geared around 66B and horizontals like 66A/3A. These while not fast enough for conventional frame traps are great at closing the gap even on block, granted on block your opponent will get initiative to try and push you back... but you force the ball in their court and if you get them to whiff you're in range for your best NH damage options.
66B seems to be his lone midrange damager for no meter, it's great everywhere except speed as you can't really control backstep with this move. It seems to just be for big whiffs and CH damage against smarter opponents.
That leads straight into what I feel is going to be his biggest shortcoming, how do you stop people from backstepping all day? I don't see a tool that hits people for backstepping out of his strong ranges. Something like Cassandre 6B where you just get some poke damage and improve spacing.
jak-d-ripr
[09] Warrior
Well the way I see it, if they really become an issue can't they just be banned?
Signia
[13] Hero
Great post, and yeah, this is pretty much what I expected.
The main thing he lacks is any kind of control or limiting of options. He has great mids and lows. You might not have seen 11K, it is a tech crouch low that gives advantage and doesn't push out of 2A range but has less attack range than 1K. I noticed his amazing safe tracking mids. The problem is that all these great tools are too slow, and outside his A, 2A, and 6B range he doesn't have anything that allows him to seize control over -4 to +4 situations of low disadvantage/advantage.
As for getting inside on opponents who back step all day, I was hoping mixing 66A and 66A$ is a free way to get inside, but you make it sound so unsafe. Other than resorting to that, I was thinking maybe Pat's dash-in might be fast enough to get in close enough for his bread and butter if the opponent starts spacing and backstepping, which leaves openings to close distance. Hopefully getting inside is rewarding enough. A useful tactic to pick up: instead of backstep G when they block something or when you get hit, step IN and guard. If they decided to back up, you lose less ground, and if they try to attack you, you'll guard and their spacing will be off.
His lack of a good back step is disheartening. Noting his lack of control, I thought maybe I could take advantage of this. Fact is, his up close mixup is dangerous, but interruptable. What does this mean? He forces action. They can avoid something like a 3A/66B/1B or 1K/11K/throw mixup just by attacking at disadvantage. And the safest and strongest way to punish attacks at disadvantage is... to backstep and whiff punish.
Really, if your opponent hesitates and plays indecisively, they run the risk of letting Pat get his mixup. They have to something (I hope). The new guard crush mechanic also hurts them if they merely step G or backstep G. If you can force action by giving up your advantage all the time to get in close, and when you do get in close you mix up well, you'll should have them attacking you in no time, and Pat has great reverse mixup options in his TC options, his aGI, and TJs.
Couple questions:
Is his WS K A string gone?
1B really gives advantage on block? That's really good. 1B appears to be a late tech crouch, so if used at small advantage, where fast As beat your standing options, 1B will beat out fast As and allow continued pressure if they stand and guard. And it's a damaging mid, so it can be part of your mixup at the same time!
The french said that A+B GI'd highs and mids, is this true? Yeah I didn't really believe it either.
Did you ever get to testing 1A tech traps?
Anything specific I should test? I should be the next person to get my hands on the game, I live like 15 minutes away from SoCal Regionals :D
The main thing he lacks is any kind of control or limiting of options. He has great mids and lows. You might not have seen 11K, it is a tech crouch low that gives advantage and doesn't push out of 2A range but has less attack range than 1K. I noticed his amazing safe tracking mids. The problem is that all these great tools are too slow, and outside his A, 2A, and 6B range he doesn't have anything that allows him to seize control over -4 to +4 situations of low disadvantage/advantage.
As for getting inside on opponents who back step all day, I was hoping mixing 66A and 66A$ is a free way to get inside, but you make it sound so unsafe. Other than resorting to that, I was thinking maybe Pat's dash-in might be fast enough to get in close enough for his bread and butter if the opponent starts spacing and backstepping, which leaves openings to close distance. Hopefully getting inside is rewarding enough. A useful tactic to pick up: instead of backstep G when they block something or when you get hit, step IN and guard. If they decided to back up, you lose less ground, and if they try to attack you, you'll guard and their spacing will be off.
His lack of a good back step is disheartening. Noting his lack of control, I thought maybe I could take advantage of this. Fact is, his up close mixup is dangerous, but interruptable. What does this mean? He forces action. They can avoid something like a 3A/66B/1B or 1K/11K/throw mixup just by attacking at disadvantage. And the safest and strongest way to punish attacks at disadvantage is... to backstep and whiff punish.
Really, if your opponent hesitates and plays indecisively, they run the risk of letting Pat get his mixup. They have to something (I hope). The new guard crush mechanic also hurts them if they merely step G or backstep G. If you can force action by giving up your advantage all the time to get in close, and when you do get in close you mix up well, you'll should have them attacking you in no time, and Pat has great reverse mixup options in his TC options, his aGI, and TJs.
Couple questions:
Is his WS K A string gone?
1B really gives advantage on block? That's really good. 1B appears to be a late tech crouch, so if used at small advantage, where fast As beat your standing options, 1B will beat out fast As and allow continued pressure if they stand and guard. And it's a damaging mid, so it can be part of your mixup at the same time!
The french said that A+B GI'd highs and mids, is this true? Yeah I didn't really believe it either.
Did you ever get to testing 1A tech traps?
Anything specific I should test? I should be the next person to get my hands on the game, I live like 15 minutes away from SoCal Regionals :D
- Moderator
- #420
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
:Facepalm: You have the idea right... But stop using numbers you pulled out of your ass.
WS K,A? I didn't even try strings... I just took combos because 66B+K seemed to work
I'm pretty sure I got hit with a high out of A+B while charging it... It was off stream, but it happened
1A doesn't hit grounded so I lost interest in using it for tech traps.
Test and see if 3K or some other kicks can reach someone after a tip hit 1K. Also tool around with his B+K options, 4B (I don't remember hitting it on CH or testing it for a BE)
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