Well you have a point there. I don't think doing Prep A+B from neutral is that great. Prep A+B could be better but I think "useless" is a bit too extreme. Prep A+B is meant to be comboed after 66B for the most damage.
Preparation Glitch Discussion
- Thread starter Heaton
- Start date
Well you have a point there. I don't think doing Prep A+B from neutral is that great. Prep A+B could be better but I think "useless" is a bit too extreme. Prep A+B is meant to be comboed after 66B for the most damage.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Delloso, you are singing an over-sung song.
Nothing but JG'ing and 2K / grab mix-ups are WORTH using.
Stick to back-step and pokes. Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people. You would no doubt kick everyone's ass with your safer, reactionary, play. No doubt.
I'll add this; A person who knows frames, with a normal to moderate reaction speed, who focuses on safe play and predictable pokes - Will ALWAYS lose to someone who has that as well as mind-games.
iPrep is not something I throw out from neutral (much.) I use it to dodge moves, or when the opponent has not much choice other than guard. I use it to stop techs, to stop predictable movement, to hit whiffs from strings that have a high coming.
I really don't feel I have ever lost thanks to that move. Ever.
Nothing but JG'ing and 2K / grab mix-ups are WORTH using.
Stick to back-step and pokes. Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people. You would no doubt kick everyone's ass with your safer, reactionary, play. No doubt.
I'll add this; A person who knows frames, with a normal to moderate reaction speed, who focuses on safe play and predictable pokes - Will ALWAYS lose to someone who has that as well as mind-games.
iPrep is not something I throw out from neutral (much.) I use it to dodge moves, or when the opponent has not much choice other than guard. I use it to stop techs, to stop predictable movement, to hit whiffs from strings that have a high coming.
I really don't feel I have ever lost thanks to that move. Ever.
Delloso
[10] Knight
Zanaken, your post has a provocative tonne, and I don't like that. I never came off as offensive to you or anybody else on this site, I respect your playstyle. You stated your opinion, I stated mine.
"Nothing but JG'ing and 2K/ grab mixups are WORTH using"
What do you mean with that? Everything is worth using, as long as you avaliate all opponent's options and calculate risk/reward. This is not the argument I was trying to bring up. I was talking about how prep A+B/ 3A+B:5 has few uses outside of combos.
"Stick to back-step and pokes. Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people. You would no doubt kick everyone's ass with your safer, reactionary, play. No doubt"
Where did I say I don't use mindgames? How did you draw the conclusion that I backstep and poke all day? And that second phrase basically means that you only wanna discuss things with people who agree with you. Probably not what you meant, but It's what it sounds like. And the irony on that third phrase, implying I'm a scrub? I won't comment on that.
Instead of passing my playstyle off as inferior and that I'm a lost cause, why don't you convince me that your strategy is that much more effective? Why don't you post your gameplay vids that people have been asking for for two months?
I'm sorry if anything in any of my posts offended you. That was never my intention.
"Nothing but JG'ing and 2K/ grab mixups are WORTH using"
What do you mean with that? Everything is worth using, as long as you avaliate all opponent's options and calculate risk/reward. This is not the argument I was trying to bring up. I was talking about how prep A+B/ 3A+B:5 has few uses outside of combos.
"Stick to back-step and pokes. Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people. You would no doubt kick everyone's ass with your safer, reactionary, play. No doubt"
Where did I say I don't use mindgames? How did you draw the conclusion that I backstep and poke all day? And that second phrase basically means that you only wanna discuss things with people who agree with you. Probably not what you meant, but It's what it sounds like. And the irony on that third phrase, implying I'm a scrub? I won't comment on that.
Instead of passing my playstyle off as inferior and that I'm a lost cause, why don't you convince me that your strategy is that much more effective? Why don't you post your gameplay vids that people have been asking for for two months?
I'm sorry if anything in any of my posts offended you. That was never my intention.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
I hear you, but I think you can guess why I said what I said.
My gameplay videos are held back by me being on xbox, and needing to buy a capture card, which seems a bit bothersome. I already said I will, so give that time, even if it takes a month or two.
I don't like the whole, "Thanks for the input, but this move is useless." reaction.
What do you mean by "People that agree with you"? I didn't ask a question, nor ask for an opinion. I just stated mine, and you said that the point I made is not useful. I just stated that the move is awesome, and that if anyone is interested I can add some strings I use it in. I felt a bit defensive that you jumped in with iPrep bashing.
I mean honestly, I see zero Raphs who use it. Literally zero. Do you feel you have used it enough to counter my opinion of it? Or are you basing you post on speculation and frame counting? If it is the latter, then my counter-post is justified.
(PS. I play this character a LOT, and I do aim to be the best Raphael, honestly. So I can get a bit defensive, or use provocative tones, when I discuss some part of him others view as useless or weak. Again, I think you could have guessed why I said what I said.)
My gameplay videos are held back by me being on xbox, and needing to buy a capture card, which seems a bit bothersome. I already said I will, so give that time, even if it takes a month or two.
I don't like the whole, "Thanks for the input, but this move is useless." reaction.
What do you mean by "People that agree with you"? I didn't ask a question, nor ask for an opinion. I just stated mine, and you said that the point I made is not useful. I just stated that the move is awesome, and that if anyone is interested I can add some strings I use it in. I felt a bit defensive that you jumped in with iPrep bashing.
I mean honestly, I see zero Raphs who use it. Literally zero. Do you feel you have used it enough to counter my opinion of it? Or are you basing you post on speculation and frame counting? If it is the latter, then my counter-post is justified.
(PS. I play this character a LOT, and I do aim to be the best Raphael, honestly. So I can get a bit defensive, or use provocative tones, when I discuss some part of him others view as useless or weak. Again, I think you could have guessed why I said what I said.)
Delloso
[10] Knight
Yes Zanaken, I understand your reaction. I admit I shouldn't have come and called the move useless when you just made a post suggesting different reasons to use it. We both made mistakes. Good thing it's all settled now.
In your previous post you said: "Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people" and I took it as "Let me discuss this with people who agree with me", which kind of destroys the point of discussions.
As for your info regarding 3A+B:5, I have a couple of questions:
- Why using it against high strings when you can just do 4B for more dmg ( and also if the opponent decides not to finish the string he doesn't punish you for your wrong guess as hard as he would punish 3A+B:5)
- You said you use the move to condition opponent into ducking on wakeup, so you can mix it up with a mid. But since prepless Prep A+B is easy to react to, opponent can just ukemi to block your mid and duck on reaction if he sees 3A+B:5, can't he? It's made worse by the fact that the start up animation of the move is easily recognizable.
- You said 3A+B:5 is useful to throw out 3 times a row as a round ender. How do you condition your opponents to fall for that?
I think everyone's aim here is to become as good Raph players as possible. That's why we gather here and share info, suggestions and criticisms. That's why we debate and try to understand each other's playstyle while still respecting it.
In your previous post you said: "Let me discuss the useful applications of Raph's move-list with like-minded people" and I took it as "Let me discuss this with people who agree with me", which kind of destroys the point of discussions.
As for your info regarding 3A+B:5, I have a couple of questions:
- Why using it against high strings when you can just do 4B for more dmg ( and also if the opponent decides not to finish the string he doesn't punish you for your wrong guess as hard as he would punish 3A+B:5)
- You said you use the move to condition opponent into ducking on wakeup, so you can mix it up with a mid. But since prepless Prep A+B is easy to react to, opponent can just ukemi to block your mid and duck on reaction if he sees 3A+B:5, can't he? It's made worse by the fact that the start up animation of the move is easily recognizable.
- You said 3A+B:5 is useful to throw out 3 times a row as a round ender. How do you condition your opponents to fall for that?
I think everyone's aim here is to become as good Raph players as possible. That's why we gather here and share info, suggestions and criticisms. That's why we debate and try to understand each other's playstyle while still respecting it.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Last point first; I meant that as an overkill move. Just a fun point about the move, and how it's a great move to spam on a corpse. Gets them angry!
First point; I like 4B, but there are situations where I would prefer to throw out iPrep. Be it for the tech step, or duck, or spacing.
For your second point, I don't use it when it's easy to react to. If you have a solid offensive pressure on your opponent, you can bring this move out when they're scared and freeze up.
First point; I like 4B, but there are situations where I would prefer to throw out iPrep. Be it for the tech step, or duck, or spacing.
For your second point, I don't use it when it's easy to react to. If you have a solid offensive pressure on your opponent, you can bring this move out when they're scared and freeze up.
Delloso
[10] Knight
For the first point, could you give me examples of strings where ìPrep is the best counter option? As far as I know, Raph has more rewarding and less risky options to every situation.
For the second point, well I've never been able to make a decent level opponent freeze to the point where he stops reacting to a i33 low with such a obvious start up animation. If you managed it, congratulations.
For the second point, well I've never been able to make a decent level opponent freeze to the point where he stops reacting to a i33 low with such a obvious start up animation. If you managed it, congratulations.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Thanks. You merely adopted fear tactics. I was born by them.
I do not read frame punishment guides, I simply throw iPrep when I know it will hit. Kinda like stopping predictable strings with the tech duck of 236B or 66B. In other words, I'd have to get back to you on that one, because I do it without pointing it out to myself.
Please don't doubt my opponents. One of my buds can time out from JGing and ducking grabs after a 2K, and another can grab me out of 66B+K every bloody time. I learned the game playing with these crazy assholes since we first started mashing our way through SC2 back in the Gamecube days of our beautiful youth...
...Good times
I do not read frame punishment guides, I simply throw iPrep when I know it will hit. Kinda like stopping predictable strings with the tech duck of 236B or 66B. In other words, I'd have to get back to you on that one, because I do it without pointing it out to myself.
Please don't doubt my opponents. One of my buds can time out from JGing and ducking grabs after a 2K, and another can grab me out of 66B+K every bloody time. I learned the game playing with these crazy assholes since we first started mashing our way through SC2 back in the Gamecube days of our beautiful youth...
...Good times
Delloso
[10] Knight
It's hard to take you seriously when you say something like that. Unless you do well in a tournament, you can't claim to be superior at the game than anybody else here. Even then, it'd still be taken as a childish attitude on your part. And that line reminded me of Bane from the Dark Knight Rises movie.
So, you admitted that you use it for no real reason against strings because there are way better options for every situation. Read the string defense guide, if you haven't already. It certainly helped me out and i'm sure it'll help you.
I too have experience facing a lot of skilled players, some of them multiple times. From my experience, throwing out moves like iPrep do way more harm than good, and no amount of pressure will stop them from reacting to it. Saying how great your opponents are doesn't prove anything, unless you can state great uses for iPrep that work well at high level play.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
So higher damage options are better, or normal 44B, and iPrep doesn't measure up. One thing though, what's the thread called again?
Even if it isn't the best option, I wanted to discuss its uses. Get me?
Even if it isn't the best option, I wanted to discuss its uses. Get me?
Delloso
[10] Knight
Then discuss them. nobody's stopping you from doing so. I want to understand your reasoning for thinking this move rocks, as (I think we can agree with this) it's high risk and low reward.
I feel this is getting heated, but I am not calling out anyone here. The purpose of this SA is to answer questions and HELP each other. When different opinions come into conflict, we need to try to "discuss", as Delloso said, and not only defend our viewpoint from others who disagree.
Zanaken, what's with "like-minded" people?? Are you implying that you only want to interact with people who share your opinions? You stated that Delloso was bashing iPrep A+B. How?? All he said is that the move is very slow (more than half a second long), is extremely linear with no tracking, and is -22 on guard...all objective facts. I suppose you would agree that the move is "high risk/low reward" and you are aware how much trouble Raph will be in if this move is blocked or stepped. This is not to say that iPrep A+B is utterly worthless.
I agree with Delloso that the tone in some of your posts is sometimes provocative and even boastful. Again, Im not attacking you. No human being is perfect.
See? Also, the word ALWAYS is a bit exaggerated. I concur that mind games along with knowledge of frames and normal reaction speed enhances gameplay, but what you said is more of an assumption.
Like WuHT, I will tend to understand your playing style as "high risk/high reward" until you can upload some videos of your gameplay. I am not saying that you or anyone else is right or wrong. I also understand that it is difficult for some of us to upload videos and no one is rushing you. All of us prefer to see the evidence than just to read your posts because sometimes your posts sound deviant from a "general consensus" of playing Raph. If you can show us how you play and we realize your strategies and tactics really "work" well, we'll learn much from you and possibly become better Raph players thanks to you.
Zanaken, what's with "like-minded" people?? Are you implying that you only want to interact with people who share your opinions? You stated that Delloso was bashing iPrep A+B. How?? All he said is that the move is very slow (more than half a second long), is extremely linear with no tracking, and is -22 on guard...all objective facts. I suppose you would agree that the move is "high risk/low reward" and you are aware how much trouble Raph will be in if this move is blocked or stepped. This is not to say that iPrep A+B is utterly worthless.
I agree with Delloso that the tone in some of your posts is sometimes provocative and even boastful. Again, Im not attacking you. No human being is perfect.
See? Also, the word ALWAYS is a bit exaggerated. I concur that mind games along with knowledge of frames and normal reaction speed enhances gameplay, but what you said is more of an assumption.
Like WuHT, I will tend to understand your playing style as "high risk/high reward" until you can upload some videos of your gameplay. I am not saying that you or anyone else is right or wrong. I also understand that it is difficult for some of us to upload videos and no one is rushing you. All of us prefer to see the evidence than just to read your posts because sometimes your posts sound deviant from a "general consensus" of playing Raph. If you can show us how you play and we realize your strategies and tactics really "work" well, we'll learn much from you and possibly become better Raph players thanks to you.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
I have no problems saying I play high risk for high reward. I am not contesting that at all!
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
I've had Prep A+B teched and blocked on wakeup, your comp can't be that great. We've been over this before. Delly just let it go man............ let it go.
And Zanny, advocating Prep A+B use is not high risk/reward. It's high risk, low to moderate reward for the risk incurred. iPrep should ONLY hit in odd instances where the opp CANNOT block, in all of those situations there are better options.
If iPrep or reg Prep A+B lands take a breath of relief cuz your ass just got hella lucky or you're playing a nobody.
Why would you use these moves for TC? How many predictable strings include a TC high from the opponent that would make either of these moves (especially with 236B's debatable TC frames) better than 1K, 4B, or iFC3B or some other iCrouch move?
Then you play/watch intelligent Raph players. Prep A+B and iPrep A+B are parlor tricks as of now. Use against noobs and at your own peril.
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Well, I don't use it from Prep unless I am certain it will hit. So ignore that one.
My main problem lies in the fact that everyone in this forum follows the law of 'I am way too smart and quick to fall for this shit.'
In the heat of battle, it is possible to string together moves in such a way as to hit enemies with moves they would be able to handle rather well standing still in practice mode, or when they see the stance entry that requires it. This is Prep K bashing all over again, and frankly its unjustified.
'Daishi put this move into the game just to catch out noobs, who will die instantly when they use it. ' I know it's a glitch version of the move, but my point rests.
My main problem lies in the fact that everyone in this forum follows the law of 'I am way too smart and quick to fall for this shit.'
In the heat of battle, it is possible to string together moves in such a way as to hit enemies with moves they would be able to handle rather well standing still in practice mode, or when they see the stance entry that requires it. This is Prep K bashing all over again, and frankly its unjustified.
'Daishi put this move into the game just to catch out noobs, who will die instantly when they use it. ' I know it's a glitch version of the move, but my point rests.
Delloso
[10] Knight
The difference is that prep K beats a lot of TC moves, and also duckers and steppers, all popular responses to prep entry. On CH combos into CE for 90 dmg. It has actual uses and it's a very good move.
I have yet to see Prep A+B being useful for anything. It has mediocre backstep, it's VERY unsafe, highly punishable, very slow, linear and recognizable. All that for only 40 dmg if it hits. And I fail to see how anyone will freeze to the point where they stop blocking this move on reaction, still waiting for Zanaken to prove me wrong.
I have yet to see Prep A+B being useful for anything. It has mediocre backstep, it's VERY unsafe, highly punishable, very slow, linear and recognizable. All that for only 40 dmg if it hits. And I fail to see how anyone will freeze to the point where they stop blocking this move on reaction, still waiting for Zanaken to prove me wrong.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
Whats good about Prep A+B is that it has a lot of range. So against some chars its quite safe on tip.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Better grab a Snickers...................
Zanaken
[10] Knight
Proof?
What proof? Ask and I'll try and accommodate you.
My favorite uses are after mid-field B+G or Prep K BE (Can miss, but, like, miles away.) That kind of stuff?
What proof? Ask and I'll try and accommodate you.
My favorite uses are after mid-field B+G or Prep K BE (Can miss, but, like, miles away.) That kind of stuff?
Delloso
[10] Knight
I just want to know how you scary your opponent to make him afraid of pressing buttons to the point where you can get away with very slow stuff. a vid would be better for that, but for now try to ellaborate on your strategy at the start of a match, and how you can keep a solid offense despite of Raph's limitations and lack of reward. I hate to say this, but Raph isn't a intimidating character. He's noticeably vulnerable to stepping and TC/ducking, and overall lacks damage to compensate for these holes in his offense. He usually gets smashed for trading blows at close range, especially on some matchups.
Also, good examples. 3A+B:5 is indeed useful after a move that knocksdown and creates space, like B+G. at that range, a lot of characters can't punish it. Even if they can, it's usually not for big damage. Be careful with back rollers though.
Also, good examples. 3A+B:5 is indeed useful after a move that knocksdown and creates space, like B+G. at that range, a lot of characters can't punish it. Even if they can, it's usually not for big damage. Be careful with back rollers though.