Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

if you know they are going to Fc3b then y not prep 4 as a response and make prep back into the 50/50 mix up that it is. ive had a few people react to the SE animation, so usually to get around it i just try to space out my prep entry further. if they wiff once into SE b most people will 2nd guess themselves.
 
youngfox said:
if you know they are going to Fc3b then y not prep 4 as a response and make prep back into the 50/50 mix up that it is. ive had a few people react to the SE animation, so usually to get around it i just try to space out my prep entry further. if they wiff once into SE b most people will 2nd guess themselves.
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a simple fact.

If you know what opponent will do you can win even using only the K and the G buttons.....
 
let me put it like this, i play el fuerte in sf4.if you dont know anything about him he is a highly mobile mix up character that does lil dmg. he is constantly considered low tier yet i still took 17th at my first major, i still have beaten top players useing this character (youtube my vids lol) and ive had much success with a character that some belive can only be gd if you can read your opponents mind.

Its all done because everyone has a pattern the trick is to recognize it as fast as possible and to also condition them. with el fuerte i may purposely do a grab i know my opponent is going to evade 5 times in a row just so when i do the same set up the 6th i can use the fact he is expecting the grab to go for a slower way more dmging option. Raph isnt so different
 
soulcalibur is different.

Expecially with raph its all about adapting.....people that cannot change patterns are commonly defined "scrubs"
 
it isnt ne different, when i was a boxer i was taught that the 3 elements of fighting are to analyze, predict and react. In all fighting styles and games this holds true.
 
It would probably take a lot of concentration (even for an experienced raph opponent) to always react to SE, as SE can be done anytime during prep (and its not even the only option). ... This is the inherent problem with stance characters when you theory-fight them.
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Truth.

Think of the SE more like SEB b, throw it in after the opponent is scared if SEA b and prep a/b, rather than as a safe stance transition. And prep is far from a 50/50 mixup, in fact from my experience prep is the biggest issue for SE; if prep doesn't intimidate the opponent (asta), there is little chance to pull off a good SE.

Either way this back and forth argument seems to be saying the same thing in terms of how raph should be played (I think we can all agree mixups, mindgames and adaptation are useful), not adressing actual moves/matchups.
 
Mr.Hai said:
Either way this back and forth argument seems to be saying the same thing in terms of how raph should be played (I think we can all agree mixups, mindgames and adaptation are useful), not adressing actual moves/matchups.
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There is a separate matchup thread, and a top 10 moves thread, if you want to discuss those more in depth, those threads may be helpful.
 
darkfender said:
exactly what i tried to say from release day >.>
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yeah I know english isnt' your first language.

The thing about the whole prep4 is that moves that are body attacks wont get aGI'd (and there are only a few handful) that both TC and are mid. Other than that, delayed prep moves combined with SE/prep4 is pretty robust.
 
darkfender said:
yes it must be for that reason because heavy weight doesn t compete with light weight.....
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And yet Leixia can compete with Astaroth. Bad analogy.

Soul Calibur and SF4 have different systems, but adapting and reading your opponents patterns hold true for both. If you're assuming your top tier Euro players don't have any patterns, then you're wrong. Every player has patterns, and every player can be conditioned.

You should seriously just go play Pyrrha. You don't have the right mentality for this character, don't stick to Raph just because you think fencers are cool or some shit. Play a character that you think can win.

Fendante said:
Basically, almost all of Raph's Prep entry moves are negative on hit and unsafe on block unless you enter Prep. Why can't these moves be safe and positive on hit when not entering Prep?? Raph's gameplay would be much more fluid and easier to manage if Prep wasn't a forced tool. We should be allowed to enter or not enter Prep at will, and Prep entry moves should stay safe on block when not entering Prep but the advantage on hit without Prep entry don't have to be huge.
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I don't think they should go too crazy and give like, 3B plus frames on hit without prep or anything. Maybe not -14, but definitely not plus. More like -6 ish or so. Giving him too much in terms of frames allows him to just run amok up close, and that's not what this character is about.
 
KowtowRobinson said:
And yet Leixia can compete with Astaroth. Bad analogy.

Soul Calibur and SF4 have different systems, but adapting and reading your opponents patterns hold true for both. If you're assuming your top tier Euro players don't have any patterns, then you're wrong. Every player has patterns, and every player can be conditioned.

You should seriously just go play Pyrrha. You don't have the right mentality for this character, don't stick to Raph just because you think fencers are cool or some shit. Play a character that you think can win.
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I think instead you should play devil jin so if nameco reads the forum doesn t have to read your absurd argument on leixia wrBE that was one of the most absurd thing i everread on this forum.....

Also maybe you forgot how "adapting" have always been one of the best quality for sc players so if opponent learn your pattern you enter a world of mindgames changing it...

Unfortunately this thing needs balance in order to work..

Have we really have to discuss basic game concepts?
I know those are clear to anybody played scIV....so what are we talking about?
 
darkfender said:
I think instead you should play devil jin so if nameco reads the forum doesn t have to read your absurd argument on leixia wrBE that was one of the most absurd thing i everread on this forum.....
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Reading that she may do an unsafe move and stepping in order to punish it for heavy damage is absurd? Go play Pyrrha.
 
which leads to ? A+BA ? If thats true, then good bye 6BB BE lol
 
beats me. What i noticed is for sure that the 3rd hit does LESS damage than before (due to the wiggle stun) so a followup must be possible or its a strict nerf.

A side thing to think of is that the fact that voldo sort of re-aligns on the 3rd stun even though raph hit him starting from the side.

88B~ crumple alignment fixed I hope
 
I think you're looking at that buff the wrong way. As someone who uses Preparation too often for his own good, it makes perfect sense to me. 6B(B) and Prep B(B) are, coupled with Preparation moves, not bad entrances and continuations of the stance, even on block. However, people sooner or later wise up to the face that your next option is most likely going to be:
  • A) aGI attempt
  • B) SE entrance
  • C) High-High move
  • D) Prep K
There are quite a few moves that cover multiple options there, and so the stance loses its effectiveness. However, people seem to forget that 6BBB and Prep BBB exist - finishing the string as it is now leads to fairly shitty reward VS fairly high risk depending on who you're fighting against. Now it gives a 22B-esque crumple stun, wherein you can probably get something like 3(B) ~ Prep BB(BE) - like you would with 22B. That's pretty good damage for 6BBB's unsafety and the fact that it's a part of the Preparation family.

Not to mention, what would it combo with, and how would it scale? You can't combo it from 22B, because they do the same crumple stun. 4(B) ~ Prep BB(B) ~ 3(B) ~ Prep B(BE) will probably combo, but that's a lot of tiny hits in a game that scales damage pretty fast. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a poor choice in combos.

Of course, that's taking into account only what we know now, and how it would be applied in the current build. The patch IS going to shake things up, so I may end up being way off base here.
 
took a secound look at the trailers. first off it looks like voldo is already stunned before 6bbb, so he was probably already hit by 4b. i could be wrong but dosnt the stun on 4b cause different properties as appose to a normal ch, like isnt that the only way to get 3b prep bbb to combo? Also if A+BA is comboable then i dont c why 33kBE wouldnt be either. its a frame faster and adds less hits to the scaling so it could be a really solid combo ender
 
I don't want to speculate what exactly is guaranteed after the new CH stun on on 6BBB/prepBBB, as it could be easily "too powerful". Even if it lead to 3A, a wallspat would drive up the damage enormously because of how strong A+BA is (unless that gets a damage nerf). I'd get too excited

I don't want to ramble on and on, but if you do the BE at the last moment of 6BB/prepBB it functions exactly like what you're saying (giving a high damage option) if the opponent forgets to respect raph's tracking mid (and im' not talking about prepK). They won't duck immediately after blocking (or even eating) prepB(B) if you throw out a couple of BEs in nonCH situations. This is, of course, my experience.

youngfox said:
took a secound look at the trailers. first off it looks like voldo is already stunned before 6bbb, so he was probably already hit by 4b. i could be wrong but dosnt the stun on 4b cause different properties as appose to a normal ch, like isnt that the only way to get 3b prep bbb to combo? Also if A+BA is comboable then i dont c why 33kBE wouldnt be either. its a frame faster and adds less hits to the scaling so it could be a really solid combo ender
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Good catch on the "already" stunned part of the voldo clip. I can't think of a current SC5 raph stun that causes him to "crumple" in that animation though.

4B isn't as strong as in SC4, as you can't even have time to do prepA if it hits. 33KB has to be executed from QS so that adds a lot of frames that you don't have. A+BA will hit grounded and falling opponents alike, thats why I suggested it (as voldo did not bounce back from eating the last hit of prepBBB).
So far, it seems like the last hit of prepBBB is now pretty much a steppable version of his prepBB BE, so you trade the meter usage for step-ability. This encouarges opponent to not optto crouch-n-counter type strats that seem to counter SE very so. A good change
 
I dont want to get too much into theory fighter here, but with meter 4b dmg out put is solid. also dosnt 663kbe eliminate most of the step frames? i know it does for 6632B. there no way to know what will work from the vid but just the fact that it crumples got me excited
 
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