Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

Don't lie, you were a Siegfried in SCIV (as soon as you beat Signia, lol). =P
I would call you a defector, but something about pots and kettles springs to mind XD.
 
Switchblade922 said:
I didn't say it was flawless, dude. That's why I'm posting my general strategy. I NEED ASSISTANCE. Excuse me for not know the proper notations, as I just kinda started taking the Soul Calibur series seriously. I'm not some cool 8+ year veteran of Soul Calibur like everyone else here. A little slack would be a appreciated, bro.
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what part of my first reply wasn't understandable ? It should be pretty helpful and i thought i was being clear for everyone (not just your own) sake.

I honestly can't tell if you want honest advice, or you just want people to agree with you at this moment. The general consensus is that flowcharts in their very nature should be transient, and even then can only work as well as you can react to your opponent to follow whatever steps you implement in your flowchart (hence working better in a slower paced game like SF series)
 
Heaton said:
My best advice is to drop the flowchart thing as soon as you can. Flow charts give you an okay offensive perspective and a terrible defensive perspective. This is especially true for Raphael, where all of your defensive options are exceptionally risky and can spell disaster if done at an improper time. You need to look at every situation as a unique one, and weigh each option on its merits at that moment. Flowcharting with Raphael just makes you predictable, and a predictable Raphael is a dead Raphael.
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Its not flowcharting....
Aside the fact that mixup are involved...
Its plain old training that works with raph from scIV

Same as post 11K options: you use 2A so opponent nitices the clash, next time you go for 4A+B, so he will start to use (can t explain this @_@) 2K usually (2A will beat it) to then go for 8B or similar...

Its all about making opponent do what you want....

More than flowcharting you need to test opponent habits and against raph most players usually have a flowchart reaction you can exploit.
 
Speaking of notation, maybe an explanation could be added to the first post along with the shorthands to Prep and SE, since it seems we have decided on:
i. 3(B)~BB
ii. 3(B)~PrepBB
iii. 3(B)Prep~BB

Fendante said:
Why Prep BBB is NCC. I mean you can only get all three hits on CH, meaning your Prep entry move must be blocked or on whiff before Prep BBB connects. It would be nice if it's NC and you can do all three hits after 3B.
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I think the idea is that entering Prep carries a risk (it is hard to exit) and commits Raph to keeping up pressure/evading a repost. Also, ~AB is supposed to be the higher damage option for 3(B), which would be less appealing given BBB

Leonyx said:
On using Prep BB instead of Prep B(B).
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This seems to be one of the safest exit to Prep, since , Bb(BE), AB and K are bad on block. Has anyone been using single ~B to exit prep? It seems to work well as a string mixup, B in particular due to ~BBB.

SA said:
On flowcharts.
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I think the degree of flowcharting is one of the issues here.

SC requires knowledge and adaptation due to not only the matchup, but also the playstyle and tendencies of the opponent. If that wasn't enough, the factor of positioning will also changed based on the stage, which in turn can change the matchup and opposing playstyle.

Most flowcharts are very restricted, as in they apply to a specific situation. For example:
66B:
On hit ~ A+B/66B+K then 11K or 11BB or 22B/33k(BE) or choppe or reset distance. If near wall choppe or 1B or 3A or reset distance. If near ring edge... etc.

While this could work as a flowchart it is needlessly complex (even more so if match time is added), separating the wakeup options from the 66B mixup (and the positioning related ones as well) is far more concise, and easier to follow. Typically a flowchart will be used to show what options are the most useful in a given instance, but this cannot be used to dictate which of those options should be used. As previously mentioned, most of the time the mixup/reverse mixup is input prior to seeing a reaction from the opponent, it is based on anticipation. For example prep~K to catch a 8wr move, the K cannot be delayed as it is far to slow, and is input as soon as possible (SE is a simmilar case, unless you enter at a range where you cannot be hit).

In the end it is hard to give specifics as to what to do, much less which move in particular to use, at any given moment during a match. While it may work out, it is better to have a diverse and open reperetoire which you focus down based on your opponent, than to have a narrow strategy you try to modify when it fails (especially due to the fact that as a character Raph needs to adapt far more to the opponent). More helpful then, would be to present setups, playstyles or characters you have issues with, or discussion on individual moves and how they fit into the moveset.

I hope that all makes sense.
 
Mr.Hai said:
Speaking of notation, maybe an explanation could be added to the first post along with the shorthands to Prep and SE, since it seems we have decided on:
i. 3(B)~BB
ii. 3(B)~PrepBB
iii. 3(B)Prep~BB
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Do you think we need a notation guide specific to raph here ? I always thought the universal one in the tactics thread was straightforward + the partisan tutorial video helps.



I think move specific "flowcharts" with emphasis on what the opponent can do, is feasible. An entire "gameplan" flow chart involving start to finish would take too long to type and read and would have too many holes.

The whole "enter prep", opponent steps left or right, which one can prep K hit ? was pretty useful.

Something like :

If SE A hits CH against someone attempting to QS, a 2nd attempt to QS can be stuffed by BB, 3B and even 6K at close/mid range. Becareful about far ranged 3(B)~prepBB, as the prepB may whiff due to pushback or the 3B may actually be stepped. 236B appears to work best at far range, but very steppable upclose. 66B is dodgeable consistently 1A is fast enough to force a crouch. 2K is almost always out of range.
 
It's not really a flow chart guys. It's just what I do out of habit for first round. I adapt if needed. But I've changed it up quite a bit. I play an offensive Raphael. Which is dumb and all that jazz but...it's never really expected. At least people on my skill level don't expect, so they panic. I kinda rely on panic tactics. I just use Raphael for pressure game honestly and it works out pretty well.
 
Gojira said:
This is what I keep hearing, but I've had it stepped a ton of times.
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Truth be told, just about all of his moves can be stepped. I'm surprised you can't step his horizontals; the only thing protecting his horizontals from being stepped is impossibility...but even then...my horizontals have been stepped before. Don't ask how. It just happened...

Despite his weaknesses, I love Raphael. My favorite character just due to the fact that it requires pure finesse to play this guy. Nothing easy about him...
 
earlier i saw someone doing the ab low hit without doing prep, he did it multiple times so its no one time glitch can it be done?
 
william said:
earlier i saw someone doing the ab low hit without doing prep, he did it multiple times so its no one time glitch can it be done?
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Sorry we gotta cover our bases here,
was it 11B?

Did his rear (right) foot step in front of the other, on his outside (Raph's left)?
 
Gojira said:
This is what I keep hearing, but I've had it stepped a ton of times.
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1K will only catch the left reliably.

WuHT said:
Do you think we need a notation guide specific to raph here ? I always thought the universal one in the tactics thread was straightforward + the partisan tutorial video helps.
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I was more concerned with the notation for prep, I somtimes use ~ to mean input into prep out of habit, and there are a few variants that show up.

william said:
Is there a Prep A+B glitch? (I assume you mean A+B since it is the low)
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http://8wayrun.com/threads/preparation-glitch-discussion.13142/
 
lol even then AB is not done during prep so.. prepless 2nd hit of AB is just 2nd hit of AB without the first A. I agree its most likely 11B
 
its definitely not. i know what 11b looks like and this was his prep~a+b but the guy did it without doing prep
 
It all depends on how the opponent reacts, 2A gives a lot of advantage, but they can step and duck.

66A+G or B+G throw
fc 3B
66(B) or 66B
2A again
...
 
Maybe this isn't new info but I'll share it anyway:

I just found out that Prep K BE has a tech jump window. Seems like somewhere around frame 10... not sure how long it is. All I know is I fought an Algol who reacted to Prep with 2A and after a guarded 6B(B) my Prep K BE seemed to go right over his 2A (which is i13).
 
The opponent's guard animation + your spacing may require that grabs need a tell-tale dash forward, which is frustrating.

If you're way up close, then its a simple grab (loses only to TC) or 236B mixup (loses to step)

Far away is trickier, because your opponent has a number of options as you dash forward, but mentally not every player is willing to take that gamble.

If you 22B into 3K (and it actually connects) you have standing options instead of wrB options, so you may get away with standing grab vs 3(B)~prepAB.
 
WuHT said:
The opponent's guard animation + your spacing may require that grabs need a tell-tale dash forward, which is frustrating.

If you're way up close, then its a simple grab (loses only to TC) or 236B mixup (loses to step)

Far away is trickier, because your opponent has a number of options as you dash forward, but mentally not every player is willing to take that gamble.

If you 22B into 3K (and it actually connects) you have standing options instead of wrB options, so you may get away with standing grab vs 3(B)~prepAB.
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Thanks for the tips. In the last one do you mean that 3K doesn't hit that often in that situation?
 
No i mean that 3K is highly vulnerable to the crumple alignment when 22B hits (the opponent's angle will change to one of 4 possible angles based on direction they were facing when hit), and therefore the way they crumple combined with raph's notoriously poor hitboxes means 3K (and 3A) has a noticeable of just whiffing. 2A does not suffer from this problem.
 
Well I just got back from ECT4, i took 4th in the tourney. I had a crazy time in pools going up against JJJ, omegaxcn, and zero effect. zero effect put me into losers in WF for my pool and i had to overcome JJJ's ezio to get outta my pool. In top 8 i took out gamerbee and sonic fox to make it top 4 where i lost to thermidor. Shoutouts to omegaxcn and JJJ who were mad cool, i wish i had time to get casuals against them after the tourney. Gamerbee was also very chill and it was nice to talk to him after the tourney.

Quick tip for first time tourney player; prepare yourself mentally. I had to do all my pool matches up to zeroeffect gauntlet style, i was soo burned out at that point. i had a similar situation in top 8, i have to work on not getting mentally fatigued.

Overall it was an awesome experience and shoutouts to KPB Fate who also repped a strong Raph at the tourney. We will show peeps that Raph aint low tier soon enough
 
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