Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

So, I was faffing around in Training mode and apparently, if you 4A Nightmare's CE at close range (like, throw range close) and activate the aGI, the CE will whiff.

I'm not sure if this is like, a well-known thing and just not very useful in practice (there's probably better options that close) and so no one bothered to mention it, but if not, well that's a thing you can do for lols, or whatever.
 
Heaton said:
The most important thing to remember about trying to make opponent come to you: you need to have the health advantage when you're trying to instigate offensive reactions from your opponent. Otherwise they don't really have a reason to come to you, and often you'll be the one who has to make the next move.
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actually this is another issue i found..raph is no more the best at dealing damage with pokes so you'll be forced to attack .-. often

at distance:
66A has laughable range, is high and unsafe but most of all chances to whiff are huge because it tracks only at tip range.
On hit the advantage is not consistent and the damage is not a threat.

66B is linear....

Most characetrs have TC 66 moves -.- even launchers to get the usual half health damage risking 20 in a mostly 50% situation.

1A does almost no damage unfortunately or it would be the perfect answer.
 
darkfender said:
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What reason do you have to make the first move if you have the health advantage? And it's not an issue of dealing damage with pokes, it's about forcing your opponent to be in a situation where they have to make the first move, and then making the best of that advantageous situation. Turtling with Raphael one of the most effective ways to play him, if not THE most effective way - case being, if you don't need to be dealing damage right that second, why attack?
 
Heaton said:
What reason do you have to make the first move if you have the health advantage?
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the fact you cannot stand still....if its true that you can recover bar, its the same for opponent and you don t want opponent to have more bar than you......expecially since raph lacks launchers and KD moves they can get near sufering damage and then unleash throw/BE mid mixups.

that at least is what's happening to me.

Moreover it aslo neuters raph guard damage game :|
 
darkfender said:
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If you don't want to stand still, you don't have to, and I rarely do either - making sure you're right where you want to be in relation to the ring edge, wall, and opponent is something you should definitely be doing while you're trying to bait your opponent. Standing still and whiffing for meter is something you do when they're being adamant about staying put, since it punishes them further for not accepting the disadvantageous situation that is running in.

If an opponent puts precedence on whiffing for meter over actually winning the round, then they either think they can surmount a comeback and win the round by rushing you and then comboing you (Cervantes, for example), which Raphael has good tools to prevent, or that they have you scouted and know that they can make up the damage in time for the round end.

I will admit that there are certain scenarios where it's probably not the best idea to let them burn meter - for example, the 10 seconds left in the round, you have full health and they have very little left, and they're trying to stock for the next round - but on a whole, just sitting and waiting with a health advantage means the balls is in your court to manipulate your opponent. Them building meter is generally not sufficient leverage to force you to rush in when there's a round at stake.

Raphael's guard damage game isn't really hampered by this strategy. To reiterate, it's not running away and just doing nothing but pokes for the entire match. It's backing off during times where even a correct guess put Raphael in an awkward or disadvantageous situation, and baiting the opponent to do something foolish so that you can punish with 236B, 6B(B), 3(B), or whatever tool you've used that works for the situation.

If you're constantly being the one that's forced to run in, however, you probably need to re-evaluate your game plan and playstyle.. These are things I have been doing and winning with - against players like Ramon and Partisan, mind you - and their rate of success tells me that they're most likely a vital part of their game.
 
i cannot agree simply because raph lacks mixups and his pokes are low damage.
I used that strategy a lot in the past but lately it doens t work.....

Most character are better than raph at range and as said as they come close most have invisible 50% mixup that will do more than 4-5 of your pokes dealing in few seconds enough to force you into all out attack if the timer is low....

I just can say that playing against saito's maxi he used that strategy against me..i could get 50-60% of his health just to lose when he decided to gamble and get in mixup or throw range getting 75% of mine in few hits with subsequent grounded pressing...and trust me i don t play unsafe or am not aware how to escape traps.

Raph is good if opponents attack and have ever been bad if opponent turtles more than him.

its hard too explain i'd need to post vids >.> its that it takes me lot of times.....i'll do that asap.
 
Hey guys just wanted to announce that raph has B+K, 4A+B, and 8A+B for turning the tides of the match if the opponent uses a BE move that is a string. They will be wasting meter and the BE glow makes it easy to recognize and counter.

Also 6B kills step if the opponent steps between a - 6 or -7 disadv. For example , alpha will have his step killed if he steps at -7. He also cant evade 6B with 214 and 236. He can only evade it by 2G into FC, or a move with a TC at early frames, which allows you to mix up between 3A and 3B. sure ,7 is pretty safe but alpha is very limited in terms of moves at -6, most of his moves have spacing on block too. I still to tedt more stuff though.

If this is true then 6BB can be a good option to enter prep and 6BB BE can deal massive damage if they stepped.

I wouldnt abuse this, or just use 6B to just let his verticals land.


Sorry if that was already found.

446G 226G 886G (rapid input)
 
Heaton said:
Raphael's K+G is probably one of the best in the game for this sort of thing, becomes it moves Raphael forward and then backwards quite a distance - almost that of a regular 6 ~ 4 input. It's also cancel-able any time in its animation
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Taunt into 236B works well (and makes subsequent taunting all the better).
If you're at fairly great distances, 4B+K builds pretty good meter on whiff.
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Also 4B+K moves you slightly backwards, which is just icing since it is good enough that the move does not move forward. Wow never thought I'd seriously be discussing the merits of 4B+K...
Kvasir said:
Oh, by the way I could post up a damn solid Raph vs Maxi guide sometime if there's any interest.
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Please, I don't want to have to learn Maxi.
optymuss said:
Hey guys just wanted to announce that raph has B+K, 4A+B, and 8A+B for turning the tides of the match if the opponent uses a BE move that is a string. They will be wasting meter and the BE glow makes it easy to recognize and counter.
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aGI study time/Heaton's string guide.
 
Which BEs would those be? Seems to me it's a short list if you're trying to find a BE where the last hit comes out slowly enough for Raph to slip in those aGIs. And even then you would probably be better off quickstepping if it's a vertical attack.
 
Gojira said:
Which BEs would those be? Seems to me it's a short list if you're trying to find a BE where the last hit comes out slowly enough for Raph to slip in those aGIs. And even then you would probably be better off quickstepping if it's a vertical attack.
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From my string defense guide, these are strings you can use B+K against, and this includes normal moves as well:

  • α Patroklos BT B+K:B
  • Aeon WR AB
  • Aeon BBB (multiple points)
  • Astaroth AB
  • Dampierre 44AB
  • Ezio 6ABB (multiple points)
  • Ezio Bb(BE)
  • Ezio 66Bb(BE)
  • Patroklos 6BBB (multiple points)
  • Patroklos 1b(BE)
  • Patroklos JS b(BE)
  • Pyrrha Ω 4AB
  • Pyrrha Ω 66B+KAB
  • Xiba 3AB
  • Xiba FC A+B
  • Xiba 66BBB
There's a degree to commitment on these, yes, but if you only have one bar of meter or don't want to waste it, B+K ~ CE is a more conservative combo than 33k(BE) ~ CE, while still doing a healthy amount of damage. It has its use.
 
Fendante said:
You have to remember that this is SCV, not SCIV anymore. Pokes aren't as good as they are in this game as they used to be. And Raph's lack of mixups is not a new problem. Also, why should you try to rush in and attack with Raph when you can wait for your opponent to make a move first??? Raph is an analytical, defensive character who definitely cannot be dealing damage and pressuring all the time like the Greeks. One of the best ways to play Raph is wait for someone else to attack first and then use that to Raph's advantage. Either that move is unsafe, steppable, whatever.

By the way, 66A does more damage than 22A and 33A so its better than nothing. -12 is pretty safe against most characters at tip range. Sure 66B is linear but don't use it recklessly. Try stepping and then doing it or use it as a whiff punisher if you can. 66B also TC's fyi
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66B is fine it simply doesn t cover a long range tool...66B is great as whiff punisher AND at short range.

Aside from that....i always had a solid defense it was one of the best thing i have as a player.
But in scV most mixups are really 50% also lots of traps are...
You cannot really say you can wait....
Opponent can play safe and tracking while raph cannot...expecially since he lacks damage output and mixups.

66A is not a good tool if opponent can risk a TC launcher or TC dash move or utrange themove itself.
236B would be god but you know what happens when you whiff :|

Waiting result in opponent getting at his best distance at thispoint depending on matcup:
-Character can ignore raph damage and go near for some mixup (66A advantage is not enough to get anything out o it).
-Character can work at range raph guard staying safe while you risk whiffing...

@optymuss 6BB,BE is awful on block.
JG and step (last hit of BE) are too easy and they can backthrow or worse.
 
darkfender said:
66B is fine it simply doesn t cover a long range tool...66B is great as whiff punisher AND at short range.



66A is not a good tool if opponent can risk a TC launcher or TC dash move or utrange themove itself.
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uh.... -_-... that's such a poor argument....

that's like saying... don't use any high moves EVER.... because they can be TC launched or TC dashed.... or get out ranged....

-LAU
 
LAU said:
uh.... -_-... that's such a poor argument....

that's like saying... don't use any high moves EVER.... because they can be TC launched or TC dashed.... or get out ranged....

-LAU
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as i said its only hard to explain...
The argument is the usual risk/reward.

Example:
You see zwei sompetimes spamming their launchers when they expect a 66A...while keeping out of 66B/236 line.
And mixupping with backstep.
if they want to get near they have a TC mid.

Your answers could be "bait them"...
I do, but i can get 40 dmg most times out of it...they get 120 or RO if their guess is correct instead.
Can you see the point?

Lucklily i can stay near to zwei >.> where raph has tools (11K, 22B etc) its not the same or every character.

Maxi has fast tracking stunners (that also deals guard damage i think) at range and heavy fast punishers on whiff.
he can 2 hit KO you.
 
Getting baited and the move being good or not to me is two separate issues....

against NM/Xiba/Dampierre all moves sucks against them if he baits you and CE your move.... but that doesn't make all moves sucks against them when they have a full bar of meter.

the same can be said if someone baits you and they GI you... ...

22B sucks if you get baited and use it and they anticipate and step it and punish you... but 22B is one of raph's most important move... the same can be said about pretty much all raph's vertical move..if you're baited and they step it you get punished hard... but that doesn't make it suck.

66A imo... is a good move..... it's decent range.. it's not super slow where you can see it and duck it on reaction... it covers step pretty well if you use it properly.

-LAU
 
LAU said:
66A imo... is a good move..... it's decent range.. it's not super slow where you can see it and duck it on reaction... it covers step pretty well if you use it properly.

-LAU
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baiting was to say that when risk/reward gets really bad..then comes issues..

66A main issue is to having a rally shorter range than vertical dash moves...making possible reacting to the move...


Is something like 11K....its invisible but at certain distance, if opponent sees you stepping he has better chance of ducking on reaction....(while 22B and other mixups helps here).

that because he knows with that movement at that range move choice is quite limited.

Same happens when you are 8wring at range....with both character trying to make opponent advance.
Maxi can get near in 8wr and use a step catcher for half bar opposed to your 22A (considering equivalent range).
Or can use a tracking TC move at that distance...otherwise can do few backsteps having good chances to stay just out of 66a while not risking verticals....

That leads to a guessing game where raph lose to raw damage

That is what happens to me.

Actually i guess right most times but if i don t, even once can cost the round.
 
At any rate...

I made an odd find today while working on the string defense guide for Natsu. I did her WR AAA, wondering if I'd missed something when I went to anti it back before the 1.02 patch. I screwed around a bit, and noticed something has changed that hasn't been mentioned in any patch notes. Before, doing 4A+B to counter the third hit of her WR AAA would cause Raphael to do the follow-up automatically, and you end up punishing it for 5 damage instead of the 30 you get when you GI an airborne opponent. However, now Raphael just does the 4A+B, Natsu goes flying, and that's it. You can't even make Raphael do the follow up by mashing on B or anything, he will absolutely not do it.

I'm not sure when this was patched it, but I know for certain that it was not this way in at least 1.01 - I specifically remember Raphael always doing the automatic follow-up against this string.
 
Dark Defender seriously Maxi is not threatening at range. He might be the easiest character to outzone in the game. I don't get why you use him as an example there.

Also about people blocking 11K because they see you walking in their face. I just do 33K$ and take my free 80 dmg.
It feels like a really reliable mixup to me, and especially on wakeup cause they know you can Pirouette Kick 'em on the floor.
 
Reptile said:
Dark Defender seriously Maxi is not threatening at range. He might be the easiest character to outzone in the game. I don't get why you use him as an example there.

Also about people blocking 11K because they see you walking in their face. I just do 33K$ and take my free 80 dmg.
It feels like a really reliable mixup to me, and especially on wakeup cause they know you can Pirouette Kick 'em on the floor.
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i did that against 99% of maxi....then i played saito that showed me new stuff >.> and how maxi can be safe while destroying raph at range....(he is infact the only maxi destroying me consistently...but despite i know he is far better than me...i still didn t find any answer to his tactic after 10+ matches....and usually i can understand at least my mistakes).

when i ll find him online again i'll ask him to play a couple matches, make a vid and show you.
Also i am one of 11K supporters here ...i rated that move as one of the top3 raph moves u.u.
 
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