Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

I still don't understand where Aris got the Tira is bottom tier crap from. She never was low tier even with all the 1.02 nerfs. She was and is a mid. Gloomy Tira is easily high tier material and Decopon showed that it's just that Jolly and her randomness drag her down.
 
Aris was shocked to see Tira's JMP B. It's safe to ignore him on Tira. It did at least make for a good storyline, and have SCV seem more balanced to people who don't play it seriously.
 
I saw someone play against kayane's viola in pools after randomly checking. Anthony moore ?
 
I saw that match. It was really bad for the Raph. I don't think it was because of Raph, but because he was outplayed by Kayane.
 
A community making a tier list a month into the game is foolish, holding on to that tier list after 2 major patches is even more foolish. The game is way to new to say nething solid on tiers at all. also darkfender like usual u r just wrong
 
youngfox said:
A community making a tier list a month into the game is foolish, holding on to that tier list after 2 major patches is even more foolish. The game is way to new to say nething solid on tiers at all. also darkfender like usual u r just wrong
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yeah i forgot you can block 2 frames moves on reaction and can block mitsu 2KB on reaction.......(after that i really find fun you still talk about theory).
Also you are saying people (who made some tierlists) that won many majors are fools ........

also tira has never been low tier.....
 
hey darkfender what have u done? all u do is complain about how broken everything is and then half the bored calls u out for being foolish. Also no pros have made a true concise tier list, they have opinions and nothing else. Its actually most of the guys who dont go to tourneys that make theory fighter into a tier list. look at alpha pat, he is generally considered the best in the game but outside of woahhzz and maybe one EU player, i dont remember too many alpha pats blowing up the tourney scene. A similar statement can be said bout viola considering there was only one in top 8 at EVo i beleive.BTW i took out JJJ's Mitsu by blocking about 75% of his 2KB
 
lol you are making sad excuses

Tier lists are vital to good players....they could not agree on some thing but as yousee many of them consider matchups thus they have a B plan...for example learning a second character....
Its just that MOST evo players doesn t even post in forums here, some of themm instead post on thir forums and actually post TIER LISTS (you defined them foolish....also).


For patsuka just wait......it just needs time to master the character, but in history i never seen executional barrier to be that much of a problem in fighting games.

What i did, it seems i predicted lot of stuff that happened after some months.....i also posted some tricks that some of you didn t even take in account justuntil someone other did them .....

For mitsu i don t care if you once blocked 2KB, it can t be blocked on reaction....you can block a predictable opponent and brag on a forum how you blocked 75% of his 2KB, i did also but at least i know it was by prediction.

EXPECIALLY since scV has some serious input lag offline.
 
tier list arnt made in a couple of months and are not vital except in mid level play. Most top sf players dont play top tier because they are top tier. those characters become top tier because of the tech high level players create. Hell in the early days of SF viper was considered bottom tier and now she is one of the best in the game.

btw SC5 dosnt even have a MU chart but people are still claiming one character to be high and another to be low tier
 
Vagab0ndPr0phet said:
did anyone catch a raph player in evo this year? i caught what i could, i din't see, one.
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I saw Hudathan there, but I don't know if he played, and if he did, I don't know if he used Raph - I don't use Raph at tournaments anymore and it kills me, and I don't really know any other Raph players that were there. I don't think Bojack went, and I'm not sure I would recognize most of the active people on this forum if I met you in person - my bad!
 
darkfender said:
lol you are making sad excuses

For mitsu i don t care if you once blocked 2KB, it can t be blocked on reaction....you can block a predictable opponent and brag on a forum how you blocked 75% of his 2KB, i did also but at least i know it was by prediction.
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2kb BE MAY be able to be blocked on reaction because of the flashiness of it - not saying that it is...you would have to be crazy fast, but it may "physically" be possible
 
many matchups are quite clear.
And i think scV wasn t realeased a couple months ago, and patch 1.03 wasn t a MAJOR patch for sure (it was quite disappointing infact).

Its not we have to wait scV is almost dead to make a tier list......in most games tier list are done even before.

But most of all 2 things has to be said:
Its not that because tira won ONCE its suddenly top tier (as i said SEE scIV zasalamel and i ve been saying this for months), as well as if instead something passed under the radar ier list will be adjusted accordingly....

The problem is nobody even tried to write a decent tier list based on matchups as in scIV french for example did.
You can t write a tier list basing on "mitsu deals lot of damage....top tier for sure" it doesn t work that way.....

Also even a reliable tier list written after years can be changed if someone (again see what happened in scIV) discover a new tactic (hilde doom combo, ivy backstep etc).
If we wait years before writing one the tier list becomes almost useless.

The problem is how tier lists are used not how they are written....
A tier list is not an excuse for losing and its not even a way for winning with less effort and its not even a balance patch request......its only a TOOL.

P.S: 2KB is not flashy ._. 2KBE is....infact the discussion was about a non BE i17 low.
 
Real_Bojack said:
Then which character have we seen a major tier jump or fall?



This isn't quite the proper place to ask questions like this but it's no big deal to me so here's advice number 1.

Pick a main and ONLY a main. Dicking around with other characters will only be a waste of time until you're familiar with the game and the system. Then go to that character's forum and read and read and read and then play/practice your ass off. After you've got a main learned inside and out then consider a single secondary. No one in Fighting Games is a Lucas Barton w/o a ton of work so expect this to take a lot of time.
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Thanks a lot, i will think about it.
 
darkfender said:
lol you are making sad excuses

Tier lists are vital to good players....they could not agree on some thing but as yousee many of them consider matchups thus they have a B plan...for example learning a second character....
Its just that MOST evo players doesn t even post in forums here, some of themm instead post on thir forums and actually post TIER LISTS (you defined them foolish....also).


For patsuka just wait......it just needs time to master the character, but in history i never seen executional barrier to be that much of a problem in fighting games.

What i did, it seems i predicted lot of stuff that happened after some months.....i also posted some tricks that some of you didn t even take in account justuntil someone other did them .....

For mitsu i don t care if you once blocked 2KB, it can t be blocked on reaction....you can block a predictable opponent and brag on a forum how you blocked 75% of his 2KB, i did also but at least i know it was by prediction.

EXPECIALLY since scV has some serious input lag offline.
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Dark Defender why do you play this game? You seem to hate on it real bad. Switch it up and be done with it already.

Also tier lists are not for good players, they're for insecure players. A lot of players who can't think for themselves need the "pros" opinion and worship it like it's the bible. But these guys are the ones that aren't getting any better.

Also about Young Fox. Yeah I was the first one laughing about how he claimed he could block moves like Cervy's 1A,B on reaction and I am still reluctant about it. But I've seen his tournament results, his tournament matches with Raphael, and I played him online a few times. Let me just say that the guy has skills with Raph and at this game and people who know him knows this. Also his attitude in his posts compared to yours gives him a lot more credibility.
 
Reptile said:
But I've seen his tournament results, .
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this is the whole point....

And is why i think this community sucks.......

So be it people who don t brag their results on a forum is wrong

People who get some results for some reason can tell anything considered wrong for yeras but it becomes true....

And do not even try to deny it because this time i didn t say anything NEW nor any of MINE opinions...if i put the names of who said that i would be right at once.......

And the latter reply by fendante is the proof this way od thinking makes only damage......making people believe nonesense....


And i won t even lose time to explain i already did......but hey i don t brag on my results, i don t post vids so i m not famous....I MUST be wrong...



P.S:also for look on scIV WHO discussed tiers between WHO.....insecure players right......

P.P.S: don t try to say its a flame its not, and not being a troll nor searching for useless self accomplishment, i won t reply and lurk as i should have done months ago when signs of this way of thinking begun.....
 
Fendante said:
I'll say again: You don't win simply based on the fact your character is high tier. You win by effort, consistency, and skill. This is not to say that characters are not broken, OP, or whatever. Lol if a person who plays the highest tier character but isn't skilled as a player with a lower tier one, that person's gonna get pwned.
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This is simply not true, and is exactly the point of tiers / matchup charts. If a slightly worse player uses a character that is much stronger than a slightly stronger player, this can make a huge difference - this is the KEY part of tiers, considering ALL PLAYERS EQUAL, which character's tools are stronger than the others. Playing against someone better than you, yes, you will probably lose (in the long run) because that person is just better...this is not an argument for or against tiers.

Fendante said:
On blocking: It is possible to block all of the moves in a character's movelist except unblockables. I don't wanna hear your futile beliefs that "this move can't be blocked on reaction..." It's not even the end of the world if somebody can't block a certain move consistently.
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Due to the limitations of the human central nervous system, this is simply not true. It will take an average human male, age 18-24 at least 11 frames worth of time to react to the most basic of visual stimulus. By this, of course I mean that to press a button (not a choice of buttons, but one button) as quickly as you can after seeing ANY stimulus, this will take 11 frames, so any move of i11 or faster is simply not blockable on reaction by the average person. With all of this in mind, blocking i12 moves on reaction still is not possible by the average human because it takes longer to RECOGNIZE a stimulus and react to it, than simply react to any stimulus (it will take longer for you to push a button when you see a green light, than it will to push a button when you see any light).

Anyway sorry for the lecture, but I just wanted to remind everybody that sometimes, things just are not possible to do for the average person. It is also interesting to know that you can react more quickly to aural stimuli than visual, so if you get used to how things sound, you can react faster.

Not here to argue about anything really, just wanted to explain some things before stuff gets out of hand ;-)
 
piggy thats where i think tiers falter, going based on who has better tools when tiering can be subjective. A more accurate way to tier would be a MU chart and the top tiers would have fewer bad MUs. I know that seem similar to a straight tier list but generally those list are influenced by tourney results and character popularity. with a MU chart all tools get taken into account and not just the obvious gd one. for example Raphs punishment can be on the weak end but in a MU where his range lets him punish things that others cant consistently, it could give him the MU 6-4. As far as i know no one has tried doing that in SCV.

Also I actually dont think Raph has too many losing MUs.I actually think that currently he sits in the middle of the cast since i also dont see him dominating too many either. Coming from el fuerte who is considered by most to have very few bad MU and mostly even ones, that makes raph a solid choice in a tournament pic. So far he dosnt seem to have ne counter picks and the win comes down to the player.
 
The french players did a MU chart. Here is the current one. They continue working on it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmAA8v332bAodG10RVB4Z2drWjN3dWFqeFp1S3g5dEE&hl=en#gid=7

Here is the project forum.
http://soulcalibur.fr/index.php?threads/sc5-ranking-project-tableau-des-matchs-ups.13457/page-19

And I really don't want to start a discussion but in no way is Raphael a middle. That's wishful thinking as much as I hate to say it. He has too many glaring issues even if he is not that bad MU wise against most of the cast.

Anyway can we let this whole tier discussion die now.
 
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